Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well, allow me to summarise our discussion.You were disproven on the front of Jacen deflecting Turbolasers, so now you have to draw from his other feats to make a case for him. If you would rather concede to me for the 50th time running, I won't think any less of you.
Nah. I'll concede they weren't turboblasters, hon, but that doesn't change my argument compared to the impressiveness of the feat, as I'll soon explain.
Originally posted by MythLord
[B]Nah. I'll concede they weren't turboblasters, hon, [b]
Well that's a start.
but that doesn't change my argument compared to the impressiveness of the feat
The feat is less impressive than you originally percived, and went down a few more notches after your argument got kamikazied by a quote you thought would help you, but actually did the opposite - comparing the canon fire Jacen blocked as a gentle counterpoint to Turbolasers. I mean really? You think you can call anyone's argument cancer after such a horrendous misstep? LMAO.
You'll get a +1 from me Ziggy, for actually going along with the Harrison thing 🙂
Anyways: It is human to make a mistake, though you are one of the farthest things from a normal human being I've ever seen, but my point is the feat in of itself is damn impressive. Why? A Force sensitive wookie gets disarmed by said cannon-fire(which you seemed to ignore damaged two starfighters, but whatever).
To put this in perspective, this is what a normal wookie can do:
-- Jedi: Shaak Ti
A standard wookie slices through Clone Trooper armor and kills them, with a simple metalic sword. I'd imagine someone with familial ties to Chewbacca -- a particularly strong Wookie that dominates Trandoshans, and tears wings off of TIE-fighters -- plus powerful Force sensitivity would be much, much stronger, no? Still, the cannon fire disarmed it.
It also disarmed, perhaps more impressively, Jaina, who in turn can cut through the lightsaber resistant skin of the Vong Slayers:
"For a moment, several slayers found themselves trapped between the two Jedi and the lashing movements of their comrades' amphistaffs. Pierced simultaneously from either side, one warrior dropped to the floor; then a second."
-- NJO: Unifying Force
-- The Essential Guide to Warefare
Jacen casually deflecting blasts of this potency, in his teenage years is incredibly impressive. Definitely not quite as impressive as deflecting the modern-age turboblaster, but he's deflecting bolts that disarm beings as strong as Lowbacca and Jaina and that take down starfighters.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Interpretations are nice. Text is even better. It is not that I don't trust your judgement, it's just that Chinese whispers have lead to myths which just refuse to die. Caedus is one of those characters that comes dressed in tales of extravagance, only to find that the stories have several blemishes upon closer inspection making them evermore plain. I will wait for the text.
I can see where you're coming from on this, I suppose. Anyways, in this quote Jacen notes he cannot see or sense Tsavong Lah's "weak spots":
"This one's armor was different. Those scales grew out of his body, giving no clue where its weak spots might lie. Jacen still couldn't sense him in the Force, but now he felt a rippling of anticipation. He would know, microseconds ahead of the moment, where and when the muscular alien would attack."
-- NJO Balance Point
This is relevant because earlier in the novel, it is noted that the Vong armor -- at least of Elites like these -- can only be "killed" with a lightsaber if said weakspots are targeted:
"Jacen leapt up three stairs at the closer warrior. The armor itself could be killed, he reminded himself. The vulnerable point was under the warrior's arms.
[...]
The other's first swing drove Jacen back down into a crouch. He sprang up quickly, stepping past his enemy with his lightsaber at shoulder height. Using his body as a fulcrum, he slashed for the armor's weak spot."
-- NJO: Balance Point
This is obviously enough to suggest that just a regular lightsaber can only cleave through the weak spots of elite Vong armor. Noting, of course, this is without Jacen using the Force so it's just the properties of the lightsaber versus the properties of the armor, and that a Force-enhanced Jacen can cut through Vong armor easily.
Occams Razor, and simple logic, would dictate that the armor of Tsavong Lah, the Warmaster and second in-command besides the Supreme Overlord, would be shielded by similar or greater armor and given Jacen's musings, that seems to be the case.
Still, when Jacen used the Force to hurl an object against him...
"The warmaster sprang toward him.
He felt the Force bring the desk back around. He[Jacen] heard a satisfying crunch of armored scales."
-- Balance Point
His scales crunched, or cracked/crushed if you will, from the sheer kinetic energy of the blow from the table.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
No offence, but the short-handed axiom of amping seems to change with convenience. If you're arguing that Jacen experienced a fait acompli of power, that he could not draw upon in a usual circumstance, then that would count as an amp. If your saying that he tapped into 'true reserves' of power that he had not mastered fully, then that would also count an amp. In that excerpt Jacen experiences a rage unlike ever before which basically takes over his consciousness. It's very possible that he was not even in full control over his own actions, suggesting an external factor was catalysing events.
I do not deny this was an amp for Jacen at the time, but the amp came solely from him finally letting go of his moral dilemma and drawing on his raw emotion(which every Dark Sider does):
"He remembered watching her writhe in the electric arcs of his hatred: remembered the sizzle of his own hands burning as lightning burst through them: remembered how that pain had only fed his anger. And he remembered how good it had felt.
Clean. Pure. No more wrestling with right and wrong, good and evil.
Every knotty problem of Jedi ethics had dissolved in one brain-blasting surge; once he had surrendered complexity, he'd found that everything was simple."
-- NJO: Traitor
By the time he became a Sith Lord, there'd be no more moral dilemma for Caedus. On top of that, he'd have a much better grasp at his Dark Side power, more mastery, more knowledge, more control and more power to tap into. In other words, Darth Caedus should be doing feats like these at his leisure.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It's also something Maul should be pulling off just fine -click me- and I see more people praying at the alter of Solo than Maul.
Your Maul example doesn't hold water. Why? Because he's only collapsing the very entrance of the cave itself, whereas Jacen collapsed the entire cave/chamber, including the ceiling:
"The wall of rubble closed off most of the chamber: tumbled hunks of duracrete, fallen in a steep slope from uncountable floors above.The only light in the much-reduced chamber was leakover from glow globes in the ruined hallway outside. The ceiling had collapsed, he remembered that much, remembered the roar, the pounding, the dust and flying splinters of stone. No, wait, it hadn't collapsed... He had pulled it down."
-- NJO: Traitor
And Maul seems to have exerted himself more, and only did that one task, whereas Jacen was simultaneously creating a vortex that utterly stomped all of the Vong warriors around him:
"He remembered the wild joy of release as the power of the storm had roared into him and through him and became a mad vortex within the underground chamber, lifting stone and brick and chunks of duracrete to whirl and batter and slash the Yuuzhan Vong, pounding the warriors with pieces of the planet that had once been Jacen's home."
-- NJO: Traitor
Jacen's feat is much more comparable to Anakin collapsing the massive dome in Labyrinth of Evil than Maul bringing down the cave entrance.
That was fun, I'll admit. I should debate you more often(regarding some characters, anyways).
Now for the small fry:
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Head-canon.Head-canon.
Head-canon.
But nice "counters though".
Canonically they do amp just about anyone who uses them, and you can't prove they don't. I've already proved they have by posting EVIDENCE. You know, that thing that proves your point that you seem to have no knowledge of?
Yeah, that thing, that you absolutely refuse to use.
You're basing this all off assumption, its immature, and pretty sad, no wonder no one takes your arguments seriously.
Actually, all of that is fact. Marka's accolade doesn't apply to a being that didn't exist at the time, Ajunta and Muur were Dark Jedi Exiles, not neccessarily "Sith" in the technical term, and Kun is canonically more powerful than him.
You posted no evidence of the scepter amping anything, you just posted evidence that Marka would risk becoming a Sith Spirit's toy in order to empower himself to a degree.
Based on my assumption? Wut? The opinion of authors has no say in the established hierarchy of the universe, hon. And going by said opinions, Sidious > Caedus ~ Revan > Kun > Ragnos. 👆
Originally posted by MythLord
You'll get a +1 from me Ziggy, for actually going along with the Harrison thing 🙂Anyways: It is human to make a mistake, though you are one of the farthest things from a normal human being I've ever seen, but my point is the feat in of itself is damn impressive. Why? A Force sensitive wookie gets disarmed by said cannon-fire(which you seemed to ignore damaged two starfighters, but whatever).
To put this in perspective, this is what a normal wookie can do:
-- Jedi: Shaak Ti
A standard wookie slices through Clone Trooper armor and kills them, with a simple metalic sword. I'd imagine someone with familial ties to Chewbacca -- a particularly strong Wookie that dominates Trandoshans, and tears wings off of TIE-fighters -- plus powerful Force sensitivity would be much, much stronger, no? Still, the cannon fire disarmed it.
It also disarmed, perhaps more impressively, Jaina, who in turn can cut through the lightsaber resistant skin of the Vong Slayers:
"For a moment, several slayers found themselves trapped between the two Jedi and the lashing movements of their comrades' amphistaffs. Pierced simultaneously from either side, one warrior dropped to the floor; then a second."
-- NJO: Unifying Force
-- The Essential Guide to Warefare
Jacen casually deflecting blasts of this potency, in his teenage years is incredibly impressive. Definitely not quite as impressive as deflecting the modern-age turboblaster, but he's deflecting bolts that disarm beings as strong as Lowbacca and Jaina and that take down starfighters.
I can see where you're coming from on this, I suppose. Anyways, in this quote Jacen notes he cannot see or sense Tsavong Lah's "weak spots":
"This one's armor was different. Those scales grew out of his body, giving no clue where its weak spots might lie. Jacen still couldn't sense him in the Force, but now he felt a rippling of anticipation. He would know, microseconds ahead of the moment, where and when the muscular alien would attack."
-- NJO Balance Point
This is relevant because earlier in the novel, it is noted that the Vong armor -- at least of Elites like these -- can only be "killed" with a lightsaber if said weakspots are targeted:
"Jacen leapt up three stairs at the closer warrior. The armor itself could be killed, he reminded himself. The vulnerable point was under the warrior's arms.
[...]
The other's first swing drove Jacen back down into a crouch. He sprang up quickly, stepping past his enemy with his lightsaber at shoulder height. Using his body as a fulcrum, he slashed for the armor's weak spot."
-- NJO: Balance Point
This is obviously enough to suggest that just a regular lightsaber can only cleave through the weak spots of elite Vong armor.
Noting, of course, this is without Jacen using the Force so it's just the properties of the lightsaber versus the properties of the armor, and that a Force-enhanced Jacen can cut through Vong armor easily.Occams Razor, and simple logic, would dictate that the armor of Tsavong Lah, the Warmaster and second in-command besides the Supreme Overlord, would be shielded by similar or greater armor and given Jacen's musings, that seems to be the case.
Still, when Jacen used the Force to hurl an object against him...
"The warmaster sprang toward him.
He felt the Force bring the desk back around. He[Jacen] heard a satisfying crunch of armored scales."
-- Balance Point
His scales crunched, or cracked/crushed if you will, from the sheer kinetic energy of the blow from the table.
I do not deny this was an amp for Jacen at the time, but the amp came solely from him finally letting go of his moral dilemma and drawing on his raw emotion(which every Dark Sider does):
"He remembered watching her writhe in the electric arcs of his hatred: remembered the sizzle of his own hands burning as lightning burst through them: remembered how that pain had only fed his anger. And he remembered how good it had felt.
Clean. Pure. No more wrestling with right and wrong, good and evil.
Every knotty problem of Jedi ethics had dissolved in one brain-blasting surge; once he had surrendered complexity, he'd found that everything was simple."
-- NJO: Traitor
By the time he became a Sith Lord, there'd be no more moral dilemma for Caedus. On top of that, he'd have a much better grasp at his Dark Side power, more mastery, more knowledge, more control and more power to tap into. In other words, Darth Caedus should be doing feats like these at his leisure.
Your Maul example doesn't hold water. Why? Because he's only collapsing the very entrance of the cave itself, whereas Jacen collapsed the entire cave/chamber, including the ceiling:
"The wall of rubble closed off most of the chamber: tumbled hunks of duracrete, fallen in a steep slope from uncountable floors above.The only light in the much-reduced chamber was leakover from glow globes in the ruined hallway outside. The ceiling had collapsed, he remembered that much, remembered the roar, the pounding, the dust and flying splinters of stone. No, wait, it hadn't collapsed... He had pulled it down."
-- NJO: Traitor
And Maul seems to have exerted himself more, and only did that one task, whereas Jacen was simultaneously creating a vortex that utterly stomped all of the Vong warriors around him:
"He remembered the wild joy of release as the power of the storm had roared into him and through him and became a mad vortex within the underground chamber, lifting stone and brick and chunks of duracrete to whirl and batter and slash the Yuuzhan Vong, pounding the warriors with pieces of the planet that had once been Jacen's home."
-- NJO: Traitor
Jacen's feat is much more comparable to Anakin collapsing the massive dome in Labyrinth of Evil than Maul bringing down the cave entrance.
That was fun, I'll admit. I should debate you more often(regarding some characters, anyways).
Now for the small fry:
Actually, all of that is fact. Marka's accolade doesn't apply to a being that didn't exist at the time, Ajunta and Muur were Dark Jedi Exiles, not neccessarily "Sith" in the technical term, and Kun is canonically more powerful than him.
You posted no evidence of the scepter amping anything, you just posted evidence that Marka would risk becoming a Sith Spirit's toy in order to empower himself to a degree.
Based on my assumption? Wut? The opinion of authors has no say in the established hierarchy of the universe, hon. And going by said opinions, Sidious > Caedus ~ Revan > Kun > Ragnos. 👆
They're considered Ancient Sith as far as the history books go, in-universe.
Besides the fact that the Gauntlet pulsed with dark power, the fact that the scepter gave Tavion "incredible power", could siphon, store, and release force energy, and the fact that its described as a powerful Dark Side artifact?
Or did you miss all that???...
Just as well, the Easter Egg talisman that was powerful enough to nearly drive Nox insane and push him back by touching it.
Who cares if ot was an easter egg or not? Thats irrelevant, and it doesn't mean it wouldn't amp Ragnos.
No, by YOUR opinion, thats the case, you seem to be the only one who doesn't take author's opinions seriously.
And are also mostly referred to as "Dark Jedi Exiles", but whatever.
Being considered powerful and being an "incredible power" doesn't mean it'll amp you, just give you an extra weapon with extra power. Marka isn't going to draw power from that thing any more than he's going to draw power from a lightsaber... Unless he pulls a Corran Horn and uses Tutaminis to absorb it. mmm
Actually, Wizards of the Coast are probably > Tom Veitch in terms of validity, so their hierarchy of Sidious > Caedus ~ Revan > Malak > Kun > Ragnos, is more concrete.
And nobody on this forum, besides you apparently, takes the opinions of authors as fact.
Also, Easter Eggs are Easter Eggs, and it is vague what Sith Lords Nox came across. We know it'd be impossible to come across most of them, however.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova having shit views ain't all that new. 😂
If I can curb you in debates even with shit views, then there's no contest between us 🙂
Besides, you two calling certain views or arguments "shit" and then running away doesn't constitute much other than your own inability to disprove them, lol.
Originally posted by SunRazerEvery argument me and Myth ever had, me being the former, him being the latter.
If I can curb you in debates even with shit views, then there's no contest between us 🙂Besides, you two calling certain views or arguments "shit" and then running away doesn't constitute much other than your own inability to disprove them, lol.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Excellent. Malak's now >>> Dooku or Obi-Wan 🙂
Oh no, Nova, you misunderstand. I don't believe that, I merely believe that author opinions shouldn't be taken seriously since they are just that -- opinions. But if we were to take them seriously, Jacen's supremecy still stands tall over all the ancient Sith 👆
Originally posted by carthage
For that Jacen Solo temple feat did he just use telekinesis or was it a force storm? The way Stover wrote it made it sound like he was using force storm, given he was using lightning/TK at once
Stover is very hard to interpret, indeed. The full passage has him primarily using lightning to one-shot Vergere, then switching it over to the Vong. Since the Vong lacked a certain "Force conduit"(which by all means is inconsistent, since lightning has and can fry them, so this is probably just Stover's fanciful PIS) he elected to unleash a telekinetic vortex and pound them before pulling down 3/4s of the chamber.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Every argument me and Myth ever had, me being the latter, him being the former.
Still trying to act witty and intelligent, I see. Keep it up, you'll fool a toddler. Maybe your choke-hold brother can clap for you when you try to dismiss my argument based on your double-standards and fail miserably. 👆
