Mace vs Vader sabers only

Originally posted by SunRazer
Old Wounds is non-Canon. This thing is Legends. Also, TCW has nothing to do with this. It takes place in 0BBY. For all we know, Canon Maul may well die before that. Either way, TCW is what you may call a retcon.

I wasn't aware of this quote, actually, although it's Canon, not Legends, and quotes from the website are overriden by the films if they contradict. That's why the AotC quote about Dooku collapsing huge boulders on Anakin/Obi-Wan is wrong since he collapsed the column on them, not boulders.

Likewise, in the film, Kit Fisto clearly isn't killed before he (or Mace) can react. As I said, Canon supports me, not you, and we're discussing Legends anyway.

I might contact him in the future, but it isn't ambiguous at all. There's literally no other interpretation of it if you're sane. Just concede and move on.

Mace moves back when Sidious leaps forwards. Sidious also moves away from Mace to strike Saesee immediately after cutting down Agen, so of course Mace couldn't respond in time.

Because people in the Order think that Mace is equal with Yoda, which wouldn't be the case if Yoda was blitzing him in their spars. Moreover, do you really think that all of their spars were simply Yoda blitzing Mace? lmfao

What are you talking about? I did a Ctrl+F of "even you" and there were no results on this entire page except when you said it. There were no results on the last two pages, either. 😬

Do you need some help? You have a tendency to overreact to others and call them jerks and whatever at every opportunity. Get thicker skin or stop wasting your time on KMC. I don't have the time to indulge your childish, delusional rants.

Which isn't anything more than negligible here 😬

No. I'm referring to it being non canon even within the Legends continuity. How is it a retcon? The Maul Vader fought in that comic was never confirmed to be an actual resurrection anyways and if it was it wouldn't have been a resurrection of TPM Maul but a resurrection of TCW Maul.

Except it doesn't contradict the movies and this quote is specifically in context of the movies meaning it should apply regardless of whether it's apart of the Legends or canon continuity as the movies like TCW are a shared work between the two mediums.

But why wouldn't he try? Even if he couldn't have reached Agen in time to save him Sidious shouldn't have been able to bring his blade around to block Mace's if he were at all comparable in speed.

And people think Anakin and Obi Wan are the greatest Jedi in the Galaxy. It doesn't change the fact that Yoda outstrips all other Jedi by a solid margin. Also, you yourself seem to hold the stance that spars should be discounted as a valid interpretation of the fighter's capabilities. I.E. Tiin and Mace.

Because you edited it out. Also please address the actual point which is Mace's logically inferior strength.

That's what we're attempting to figure out via scaling actually so I'd ask you to cease making claims until we can reach an agreeable disparity.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No. I'm referring to it being non canon even within the Legends continuity. How is it a retcon? The Maul Vader fought in that comic was never confirmed to be an actual resurrection anyways and if it was it wouldn't have been a resurrection of TPM Maul but a resurrection of TCW Maul.

Because TCW came after this comic. At the time, Maul was thought to have died in the

Except it doesn't contradict the movies and this quote is specifically in context of the movies meaning it should apply regardless of whether it's apart of the Legends or canon continuity as the movies like TCW are a shared work between the two mediums.

It does contradict the movie, since Mace did react before Kit died and even clashed blades with Sidious.

But why wouldn't he try? Even if he couldn't have reached Agen in time to save him Sidious shouldn't have been able to bring his blade around to block Mace's if he were at all comparable in speed.

We don't know whether or not he tried. We see Sidious impaling Agen and immediately spinning away from Mace to impale Saesee, which Mace would've been powerless to stop.

And people think Anakin and Obi Wan are the greatest Jedi in the Galaxy. It doesn't change the fact that Yoda outstrips all other Jedi by a solid margin. Also, you yourself seem to hold the stance that spars should be discounted as a valid interpretation of the fighter's capabilities. I.E. Tiin and Mace.

I'm not going to argue about Anakin vs Yoda here.

I was using the point about spars since you were taking them seriously.

Because you edited it out. Also please address the actual point which is Mace's logically inferior strength.

That's what we're attempting to figure out via scaling actually so I'd ask you to cease making claims until we can reach an agreeable disparity.

Edited what out? The "even you" thing? I don't remember it, and if I did edit it out, that would mean that I took it back. So I still don't know what you're complaining about in either sense.

Mace contending with Grievous in strength just fine, and breaking out of the grip of Gundarks, and his charge against Dooku, would imply that his strength is close enough to Vader's so as to not have considerable difficulty repelling his strikes.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because TCW came after this comic. At the time, Maul was thought to have died in the

It does contradict the movie, since Mace did react before Kit died and even clashed blades with Sidious.

We don't know whether or not he tried. We see Sidious impaling Agen and immediately spinning away from Mace to impale Saesee, which Mace would've been powerless to stop.

I'm not going to argue about Anakin vs Yoda here.

I was using the point about spars since you were taking them seriously.

Edited what out? The "even you" thing? I don't remember it, and if I did edit it out, that would mean that I took it back. So I still don't know what you're complaining about in either sense.

Mace contending with Grievous in strength just fine, and breaking out of the grip of Gundarks, and his charge against Dooku, would imply that his strength is close enough to Vader's so as to not have considerable difficulty repelling his strikes.

Thought to have died in the what? And what does TCW coming after the comic have to do with the means in which this Maul doppelganger came about? Since it was never confirmed to be an actual clone it supports what I'm saying about it being a conjured illusion of the acolytes.

https://youtu.be/4ESOrF_u1hg 0:42-0:45 Sidious cuts down both Tiin and Agen without any interception from Mace. What are you referring to.

Got mixed up there. I was referring to Tiin. Why didn't Mace lunge or attempt to strike at Sidious once he had cut down Agen and turned to cut down Tiin. He just stands there.

I personally do but you don't seem to. I would address your point if you gave me an actual example of Mace and Yoda sparring with Mace not getting outstripped in speed. Do you have such an example?

I don't think you took it back to be nice but rather to save face and so that you wouldn't prove me right about being a pompous @ss.

Dooku and the Gundarks aren't enough to keep Mace from being moderately outclassed in strength. You can make an argument for Grievous but we know even he's inferior to Vader and Mace being able to handle those strikes doesn't he means he's an equal to Grievous in physical strength.

Windu's better than Vader.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Thought to have died in the what? And what does TCW coming after the comic have to do with the means in which this Maul doppelganger came about? Since it was never confirmed to be an actual clone it supports what I'm saying about it being a conjured illusion of the acolytes.

Because TCW happened after. It was supposed to be a resurrection of Maul at a time when TCW doesn't exist. It's obviously not a resurrection of TCW Maul, as you can gather from his appearance.

https://youtu.be/4ESOrF_u1hg 0:42-0:45 Sidious cuts down both Tiin and Agen without any interception from Mace. What are you referring to.

Got mixed up there. I was referring to Tiin. Why didn't Mace lunge or attempt to strike at Sidious once he had cut down Agen and turned to cut down Tiin. He just stands there.

I don't know, you'd have to ask the choreographers that. I do know that Mace still reacted in time to fight alongside Kit in both the novel and the film, so the quote(s) about Mace not being able to react before all of his comrades fell is wrong.

I personally do but you don't seem to. I would address your point if you gave me an actual example of Mace and Yoda sparring with Mace not getting outstripped in speed. Do you have such an example?

Mace is obviously outstripped in speed, just not enough to be blitzed 😬

And no, Mace has no on-panel spars with Yoda, but we know they have sparred per sourcebooks. But it'd be ridiculous to assume that Yoda simply blitzed him, especially since there were still people regarding Mace as Yoda's equal with a blade.

I don't think you took it back to be nice but rather to save face and so that you wouldn't prove me right about being a pompous @ss.

And here we go again with the accusations. I find it ironic that you call other people pompous asses but refuse to see a good side to them.

Dooku and the Gundarks aren't enough to keep Mace from being moderately outclassed in strength. You can make an argument for Grievous but we know even he's inferior to Vader and Mace being able to handle those strikes doesn't he means he's an equal to Grievous in physical strength.

Maybe not, but Grievous is damn-near close to Vader in strength by showings, and if Mace was fine against Grievous' strength, he'll be fine against Vader. I also recall lesser Jedi contending with Vader's strength.

Gundarks outclassed by Vader in strength? Maybe if somebody found that quote about them being sometimes favored over Rancors in gladiatorial battles, you might be convinced otherwise?

Isn't the Vader - Maul fight non-canon even in Legends?

Yup.

The situation is unclear. I'm sure there is some passage in a source book that references the fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because TCW happened after. It was supposed to be a resurrection of Maul at a time when TCW doesn't exist. It's obviously not a resurrection of TCW Maul, as you can gather from his appearance.

I don't know, you'd have to ask the choreographers that. I do know that Mace still reacted in time to fight alongside Kit in both the novel and the film, so the quote(s) about Mace not being able to react before all of his comrades fell is wrong.

Mace is obviously outstripped in speed, just not enough to be blitzed 😬

And no, Mace has no on-panel spars with Yoda, but we know they have sparred per sourcebooks. But it'd be ridiculous to assume that Yoda simply blitzed him, especially since there were still people regarding Mace as Yoda's equal with a blade.

And here we go again with the accusations. I find it ironic that you call other people pompous asses but refuse to see a good side to them.

Maybe not, but Grievous is damn-near close to Vader in strength by showings, and if Mace was fine against Grievous' strength, he'll be fine against Vader. I also recall lesser Jedi contending with Vader's strength.

Gundarks outclassed by Vader in strength? Maybe if somebody found that quote about them being sometimes favored over Rancors in gladiatorial battles, you might be convinced otherwise?

Oh? Please provide the quote that says it was an actual resurrection of Maul's spirit or a clone.

But he's not able to react as the other two are cut down. This is evident in the movie when he does absolutely nothing as Sidious kills Tiin and Kolar and in the novel when Sidious blitzed both Agen and Saesee and Mace and Fisto don't react.

"Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "... hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still. Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back."

Mace and Fisto only have time angle their blades as Sidious makes his way back to his desk over the bodies. They have no time to attack.

"In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop."

As I said though you've already taken the stance that you don't believe spars are indicative of actual ability anyways.

But this opinion is obviously not the case given what we KNOW of both their performances against Sidious. It could refer to technical skill which I could see but other then that we know the quote is blatantly wrong if it refers to overall combative ability and thus should be discounted.

I think you're a solid debater that is mostly without bias. I see the good in people. I just don't ignore their faults.

If you could post that quote it might help sway me, yes. Also if you could post the quote with Mace freeing himself of the gundark I would appreciate that as well.

Mace.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Oh? Please provide the quote that says it was an actual resurrection of Maul's spirit or a clone.

I provided both of them to you already. Follow the discussion.

But he's not able to react as the other two are cut down. This is evident in the movie when he does absolutely nothing as Sidious kills Tiin and Kolar and in the novel when Sidious blitzed both Agen and Saesee and Mace and Fisto don't react.

I already told you that this is bad choreography. Mace and Kit don't react when the other two are cut down, but they react in time to save their own skins, hence, they can react. It's not hard.

"Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. [b]A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "... hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still. Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back."[/b]

That's in the novel, where they move ahead of Mace and Kit, as I've told you. Mace and Kit only get to raise their lightsabers to defend since they're taken by surprise, but the novel notes them fighting Sidious later on as well. So my point stands.

As I said though you've already taken the stance that you don't believe spars are indicative of actual ability anyways.

No, but you do, so you should accept this, unless you've decided to do a 180. I take other people's perspectives and opinions on things into account when I debate with them.

But this opinion is obviously not the case given what we KNOW of both their performances against Sidious. It could refer to technical skill which I could see but other then that we know the quote is blatantly wrong if it refers to overall combative ability and thus should be discounted.

It's not just one quote and it can't be discounted because of your arbitrary interpretations 😬

I think you're a solid debater that is mostly without bias. I see the good in people. I just don't ignore their faults.

You have a habit of calling people out for non-existent arrogance and other non-existent traits. You might want to consider if that's offensive to them.

If you could post that quote it might help sway me, yes. Also if you could post the quote with Mace freeing himself of the gundark I would appreciate that as well.

There's no quote for the Gundark, it's just a GIF in his RT. Or you can search it up on Google.

And that's in TCW, a medium where Jedi are portrayed like shit 👆

In one of the episodes a single Gundark made Anakin its b-itch 🙂

The one where Dooku got captured, right? Terrible.

Although that was the Queen of the Gundarks or some shit.

Meh, looked the same size as those Mace fought.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I provided both of them to you already. Follow the discussion.

I already told you that this is bad choreography. Mace and Kit don't react when the other two are cut down, but they react in time to save their own skins, hence, they can react. It's not hard.

That's in the novel, where they move ahead of Mace and Kit, as I've told you. Mace and Kit only get to raise their lightsabers to defend since they're taken by surprise, but the novel notes them fighting Sidious later on as well. So my point stands.

No, but you do, so you should accept this, unless you've decided to do a 180. I take other people's perspectives and opinions on things into account when I debate with them.

It's not just one quote and it can't be discounted because of your arbitrary interpretations 😬

You have a habit of calling people out for non-existent arrogance and other non-existent traits. You might want to consider if that's offensive to them.

There's no quote for the Gundark, it's just a GIF in his RT. Or you can search it up on Google.

No, you did not. You provided quotes implying it was a possibility. Please attempt to follow the discussion.

Spoiler:
you pompous piece of sh!t

They only managed to react after they'd lifted their blades in defensive postures.

And I've told you that in the movie they move ahead at the most a meter. And nothing indicates Fisto landed any longer then he did in the movie. This is what it says about him.

"Their blind lives meant nothing now. None of them. Because ahead, on the vast cliff face of the Senate Office Building, one window spat lightning into the rain to echo the lightning of the storm outside—but this lightning was the color of clashing lightsabers. Green fans, sheets of purple— And crimson flame. He was too late. The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red."

And the next time it flashes back to Mace's perspective he's sinking into Vaapad.

I take spars as valid when there's nothing indicating a character couldn't have kept up. Given we know Mace has shown he can't keep up with characters like Sidious and Yoda any spars between them couldn't be fully serious on Yoda's part. Regardless it's not indicated that the quote regarding Mace's ability as a swordsman is based off of spars he had with Yoda.

I hope it's offensive because maybe it'll make you realize how arrogant you're being and snap you out of it.

I'm referring to the quote you mentioned about Gundarks being favored in fighting pits over Rancors. Though honestly that likely has less to do with physical strength then intelligence.

I can't even use the quote button, so this will be painful.

No, you did not. You provided quotes implying it was a possibility. Please attempt to follow the discussion.

Sorry, but:

"There are ways those who are no more can live again".

"We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."

Is far stronger than your speculative case about Maul suddenly being better than he was. Either show me proof that he was better than usual, or concede. I'm not interested in a prolonged discussion on this.

They only managed to react after they'd lifted their blades in defensive postures.

They deflected more than one strike, so it wasn't just the preliminary positioning that allowed them to react.

And I've told you that in the movie they move ahead at the most a meter. And nothing indicates Fisto landed any longer then he did in the movie. This is what it says about him.

"Their blind lives meant nothing now. None of them. Because ahead, on the vast cliff face of the Senate Office Building, one window spat lightning into the rain to echo the lightning of the storm outside—but this lightning was the color of clashing lightsabers. Green fans, sheets of purple— And crimson flame. He was too late. The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red."

And the next time it flashes back to Mace's perspective he's sinking into Vaapad.

Your quote just proves that they were fighting, ergo, reacting.

I've lost track of what we're discussing anyway. Since when is Vader near Sidious in speed? What's this supposed to prove?

I take spars as valid when there's nothing indicating a character couldn't have kept up. Given we know Mace has shown he can't keep up with characters like Sidious and Yoda any spars between them couldn't be fully serious on Yoda's part. Regardless it's not indicated that the quote regarding Mace's ability as a swordsman is based off of spars he had with Yoda.

Mace is equal to Dooku, who's shown to be able to hold his own against Yoda to an extent. Moreover, there are quotes saying that Yoda beat him in spars, but seeing as certain Jedi still believed that Mace and Yoda were equals, I'm assuming that Yoda didn't blitz him because I don't think any Jedi would maintain that they were equals after watching that 😬

I hope it's offensive because maybe it'll make you realize how arrogant you're being and snap you out of it.

Again, you mistake being matter-of-fact for being arrogant. There's nothing arrogant about this - I treat us all as equals by right.

You need to stop accusing people of baseless things every second sentence and start debating with a spine. There's people far more arrogant than me here and you're not calling them out for it. And even if I was arrogant, who cares? It's an internet forum, we're here to debate. If you don't like me, then don't debate with me.

I'm referring to the quote you mentioned about Gundarks being favored in fighting pits over Rancors. Though honestly that likely has less to do with physical strength then intelligence.

Yes, I know, I don't have the quote, which is why I was appealing for someone else to get it.

Only going to respond to this once per day to keep my schedule relatively free.

😆

I should do that as well.