Originally posted by Beniboybling 2. Which I addressed yeah. But if "Kenobi is old and rusty" all you have in response then 1. He's the same age as Qui-Gon (actually, he's three years younger) and 2. "Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner" according to Lightsaber.
We're getting nowhere with these constant diversions and splitting of hair strands, so lets bring this argument full circle. The debate is simple. Can Qui Gon replicate Anya Kuro's duel against Vader prior to A New Hope, and can he do so to a much greater degree? According to all available evidence, the answer is yes. Can Qui Gon legitimately contend with Vader in a duel? Again, yes. Can Vader stomp duelists of Qui Gon's stature and praise without reason? No he can not, and has never shown the ability to do so.
Beniboyling's Escapades - The Versus Seires
Originally posted by Beniboybling Jinn's strength doesn't compare to Vader's in any way, and in a showdown with Darth Vader he would have got tanked and spanked to an embarrassing degree.
So according to this damning statement, Vader can embarrass Jinn with superior strength that that the latter can not even hope to compete with in his wildest dreams. For me at least, there are more than a few reasons why I don't think Jinn will be getting embarrassed, and especially not against Vader before his prime in Return of the Jedi. The premise is simple, the notion needs little explanation. Vader has never out-duelled anyone on Qui Gon's level... I'm kidding of course, it's worse than that. Vader has never out-duelled an opponent on Anoon Bonder's level. This is a weapons master of whom regularly looks up to Qui Gon as a superior, and has lost in various sparring matches against him. So far, the threshold hit-list of people Vader can embarrass looks a little something like this:
. The Dark Woman
. Celeste Morne
. Roan Shrine
. ESB Luke
. Early Season 2 Kanan
. Season 2 Ezra
These are all people Vader has managed to beat by merit of his superior skill. Clear cut victories that even the most meticulously pedantic nitpicker can't deny. Yet they're all fodder. Not one of them has decent renown within the order as one of the best, and Luke, despite his natural aptitude, can not even be compared with Padawan Anakin. I very much doubt he's on level with TMP Kenobi either. These are all fighters that one can safely say, without controversy, will be getting embarrassed by Vader. But Vader, for all his post-modern terminator like strength , could not embarrass Ahsoka Tano, nor could he break Ben Kenobi, or Luke in Return of the Jedi.
Vader can not embarass Ben Kenobi
For Old Ben, we have a compounding set of factors that overall make him a far less-able duelist than his prime self, possibly by a massive degree. The first is his age, the second are the various battle wounds that have caught up with him in his yonder years, the third is his lack of practice and the fourth is Vader's familiarity with his style. Qui Gon jinn has only one of these hallmarked characteristics, but can still remain one of the best fighters in his day. On the other hand, Obi Wan has declined in both physicality and skill, yet Darth Vader was unable to break his guard and Kenobi's offense is still good enough to pose a genuine threat to Vader, the latter recognising that he could die at any point during their fight :
"The tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields." - Source: Fightsaber
"Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye." - Source: Death Star
"Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice" - Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
"He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force." - Source: Death Star
"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves." - Source: Fightsaber Article
"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette
And then there are the various sources reiterating what I have claimed about Kenobi's decrepit style of fighting. Qui Gon might be old, but his area of expertise doesn't go without routine practice. He still presumably spars with various masters and continues polishing his style to suit his aged physicality, while Kenobi is specifically stated to be rusty and unpracticed, the consequences of that are in both degraded skill and wavered strength, making it very simple for me to decide who's better of the two - and it's not Old Ben. So pray do tell, why is Vader not embarrassing this opponent? As a matter of fact, why is he not even winning the fight until Kenobi's an-herioc intent allows him an opening?
Vader can not embarrass Ashoka Tano
There is far less source material covering this matter, but the only relevant text implies that she's inferior to Maul, who is out of his prime. She was able to match Vader for a protracted fight, apparently in the center of some massive crackling aura of dark-side energy. That last part might have tipped the scales in Vader's favour. Regardless, is Ashoka vastly superior to Jinn? Not really. Is she superior to him at all? I don't see a single reason why she should be, and he still has her beat in the realm of accolades.
Qui Gon Jinn's Embarrassment at the Hands of Vader - The Reasoning
Originally posted by Beniboybling And Maul is going to need more than his Lockdown feats to compare with Vader lol, not when the power of his blows was enough to almost disarm Galen Marek.
Firstly, Galen's strength feats are non-existent, so I don't know why this is even mentioned as a notable example to serve the church of Vader. In this regard, Maul literally butchers him with his bare hands and no Force connection. And yes, Maul's unamped showings in Lockdown match anything Vader is capable of. For example, he ripped the armored skull off of a Varactyl in a single jerk, creatures that have absolutely massive necks considering the amount of tendons and musculature in addition to their skeleton that he would have simply split in two. So why is Galen even being mentioned? I think I can take a shot at guessing why... He's evidently powerful, particularly when it comes to playing with big metal objects. But power doesn't always transcribe to inate talent with a lightsaber. Kyp Durron, K'kruhk, Rivi Anu, Nihillus ect are all good examples of this. Galen is perhaps moreso, as his track record of fights is basically appalling, and are against people who can be reasonably scaled. It's also worth noting that almost all of his hard fought battles were won through the Force, not duelling. I think the only exception to this is Maris Brood. Shaak ti is the only duelist here comparable to Jinn and she all but decimated failen, and the strength of her opener managed to make him recoil backwards. Comparatively, Jinn could send shudders through Maul's body with his strikes.
