Originally posted by SunRazerYou mean in Resurrection? Chee has stated that we can't be sure what we were seeing, and consequently, can't be sure he shares Maul's capabilities.
Maul was contending with Vader's strength fine in the comic. They're obviously comparable.
Why would he comment if basic physics were in play? It's clear that the two of them are both physical powerhouses. It's not as if Qui-Gon hasn't pitched Xanatos several meters and left him floored just by breaking a saberlock with him or something.Because he's describing the feeling of the fight? 😕
But yes, Qui-Gon is strong, that doesn't mean his strength rivalled Maul's. Instead the fact that Maul is able to overcome him so quickly demonstrates otherwise.
Is this just because Ahsoka did the same thing?Why would someone replicating the feat in a different continuity make me find it more impressive?
Anyways, it was the first strike in the damned fight - any respectable Force user could do that with extensive effort.Sure, I think I've already said several times how Marek was almost disarmed by Vader's opening salvo, which would be when he's at his strongest.
Which it evidently was, since An'ya was tiring and getting desperate from blocking each strike of Vader's. At least Qui-Gon wasn't tiring from the first few blows against Maul.Kuro begins to show strain towards the end of the fight, after which she's been contending with Vader for some time, I'm not seeing where she appears fatigued or desperate after the first few blows.
Given the standard of opponents that Vader had faced then, I'm not surprised.That hardly means anything.
Jinn wins on flat-ground, as I said. In an environment where An'ya can bring her powers to bear, then she's at the advantage.Through his skill as a warrior he could yeah, but he's not overpowering Kuro through sheer might.
Originally posted by ZiggystardustIn your position yeah, I'd suggest regrouping.
We're getting nowhere with these constant diversions and splitting of hair strands, so lets bring this argument full circle. The debate is simple. Can Qui Gon replicate Anya Kuro's duel against Vader prior to A New Hope, and can he do so to a much greater degree? According to all available evidence, the answer is yes. Can Qui Gon legitimately contend with Vader in a duel? Again, yes. Can Vader stomp duelists of Qui Gon's stature and praise without reason? No he can not, and has never shown the ability to do so.
So according to this damning statement, Vader can embarrass Jinn with superior strength that that the latter can not even hope to compete with in his wildest dreams. For me at least, there are more than a few reasons why I don't think Jinn will be getting embarrassed, and especially not against Vader before his prime in Return of the Jedi. The premise is simple, the notion needs little explanation. Vader has never out-duelled anyone on Qui Gon's level... I'm kidding of course, it's worse than that. Vader has never out-duelled an opponent on Anoon Bonder's level. This is a weapons master of whom regularly looks up to Qui Gon as a superior, and has lost in various sparring matches against him. So far, the threshold hit-list of people Vader can embarrass looks a little something like this:"The premise" is inherently flawed, since the number of people Vader has defeated doesn't place limitations of those he could defeat. The fact that Jinn (and the majority of the Jedi Order) had already been tanked and spanked by the time Vader came along is no basis for an argument. Only be grateful they were spared the embarrassment. I won't even begin with the inaccuracies regarding your "fodder" label, seeing as you bandy that term about so liberally, and contradictorily (like by throwing it at Jinn's executioner, Maul, lmao.). The Dark Woman
. Celeste Morne
. Roan Shrine
. ESB Luke
. Early Season 2 Kanan
. Season 2 EzraThese are all people Vader has managed to beat by merit of his superior skill. Clear cut victories that even the most meticulously pedantic nitpicker can't deny. Yet they're all fodder. Not one of them has decent renown within the order as one of the best, and Luke, despite his natural aptitude, can not even be compared with Padawan Anakin. I very much doubt he's on level with TMP Kenobi either. These are all fighters that one can safely say, without controversy, will be getting embarrassed by Vader. But Vader, for all his post-modern terminator like strength , could not embarrass Ahsoka Tano, nor could he break Ben Kenobi, or Luke in Return of the Jedi.
Instead here's an even simpler premise for you: Qui-Gon was rendered a 30 second affair by the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices, logic dictates that the strongest would give him an even greater spanking.
As for Ahsoka, Luke, and Ben, they are all better than Jinn. Some of them substantially better, and Ben in particular, had key advantages that Jinn would lack, I'll get to Ahsoka and Ben in a moment but Luke can wait until you can substantiate your nonsense claim that he's sub-TPM Kenobi (despite being one of the greatest Jedi ever) with anything resembling evidence.
Vader can not embarass Ben KenobiFirst of all let's clarify one thing, because naturally you're incapable of reading the source material.
Against Vader Ben was losing, decisively I might add. And there is no doubt that had he not decided to yield, Vader would have defeated him all the same. The fact that he failed to break his guard and strike him down prior to that moment, is self-evident and needn't be pointed out. Now, let's go over the evidence.
Vader was easily handling Kenobi's attacks, and pushes him on the defensive:
Taken from Death StarComparatively Kenobi struggled with Vader's offensive, and was quickly driven back as his stamina flagged:"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut.
Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike.
If the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking instead of defending, he was mistaken. Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend.
Taken from A New Hope novelisationExecuting a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried. Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord.
Taken from Death StarMoving on, let's address your comparison between Kenobi and Jinn. First off "various battle wounds that have caught up with him"? Lol, OK, so we can pretty much write off your comparison as bullshit from the off. Let's try it again.Obi-Wan twirled and blocked a slash, then wove a defensive pattern with his blade. The Force was still with the old Jedi; he was able to anticipate Vader's strikes and block or parry them. But after a quick exchange, Vader felt the energy shift in his favour. "Your powers are weak, old man."
Another exchange - four, five, six attacks and blocks - and Vader knew the old man was weakening. The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader. It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began.
Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved.
Vader backed Obi-Wan past an open blast door leading to the forward dock where the Rebel freighter was being held under guard. The old man was obviously tiring.
1. Kenobi has been slowed by age, correct. But so has Jinn.
2. Kenobi is out of practice, yes, but unpracticed? Hardly. Instead in The Life and Legend of Kenobi it's instead stated that Kenobi kept up his Jedi exercises:
It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.And as I've already raised, Fightsaber notes that he remains a "formidable" duelist. But still he's not as practiced as Jinn right? Sure, but here's the catch, Kenobi in his prime was a much better fighter than Jinn. Even by TPM, Kenobi's performance against Maul suggests he is approaching him in this regard. And by TCW, he's going toe-to-toe with an even more formidable version of the Sith Lord, where Jinn was dismantled. Heck, there are even some, (and won't name names) who think that by TCW, Kenobi was comfortably better than Maul. So in those persons' eyes, surely Kenobi totally eclipsed his master. And of course, during the ensuing Outer Rim Sieges, Kenobi only got better.
And on top of that, though by ANH his skills have declined, he's more powerful in the Force than ever:
Taken from A New Hope novelisationi.e. much more powerful than Jinn. And if that didn't largely compensate for his decline in skill, as far as a comparison with Qui-Gon is concerned, his considerable superiority to as a duelist to his master does. Frankly, I don't see a reason to believe Jinn is even Old Ben's equal as a combatant, let alone his superior.Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting.
3. Now for the final nail in the coffin. Namely, as I've raised, that Kenobi's mastery over Soresu would have proven a stylistically effective counter against Vader's aggressive assault, logic dictates this would be the case, but Fightsaber confirms it:
Classically, Form III allows Kenobi to hold off the Dark Lord, but cannot bring him victory against the more powerful Form V.So defensively speaking, what does Jinn, an offensive specialist, have that compares? Well... oh dear.
I stand by my original premise:
Qui-Gon was rendered a 30 second affair by the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices, logic dictates that the strongest would give him an even greater spanking.
