Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Faster then Dooku or Anakin's eye could see ( Force user's with superhuman perception ) or a third person statement "faster then the eye can see."
The Force does boost perceptions, but its primary utility comes from adding in an extra one. Whether Anakin's Force augmentation boosts the processing power of his eyes is kind of irrelevant.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's like discounting the notion that Michael Phelps is a fast swimmer by pointing out that he would get creamed if he tried to use butterfly in a freestyle race.
No it's not. The analogy is not the same at all. If Anakin was truly as fast as Yoda then the form he used against Dooku shouldn't matter. He should cream him regardless. And it's not like he's even unskilled in Shien since that's essentially the other side of Form V which Anakin's a master in.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Didn't you threaten to get lots of people to try and overwhelm me? 🙂
No. I said I'd hope that would happen because you're an inhuman machine capable of pumping out posts without stop. I am not as good at constant posting as you are and will not entertain a three way debate when I'm already doing 3 other debates with you one of which addresses this very subject.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No it's not. The analogy is not the same at all. If Anakin was truly as fast as Yoda then the form he used against Dooku shouldn't matter. He should cream him regardless. And it's not like he's even unskilled in Shien since that's essentially the other side of Form V which Anakin's a master in.
You're assuming that the speed disparity between Yoda and Dooku is so large that technical skill is irrelevant. That evidently isn't the case, since we've seen Yoda and Dooku fight and it's not like Dooku can't even react to him or anything. Dooku can be slower than Anakin but compensate for it if he moves his blade more efficiently, which he would be if Anakin were using a ploy form and deliberately holding back.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The Force does boost perceptions, but its primary utility comes from adding in an extra one. Whether Anakin's Force augmentation boosts the processing power of his eyes is kind of irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant depending on what the quote Ant mentioned is referencing.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're assuming that the speed disparity between Yoda and Dooku is so large that technical skill is irrelevant. That evidently isn't the case, since we've seen Yoda and Dooku fight and it's not like Dooku can't even react to him or anything. Dooku can be slower than Anakin but compensate for it if he moves his blade more efficiently, which he would be if Anakin were using a ploy form and deliberately holding back.
No I'm not otherwise Yoda could have just disarmed Dooku and captured him. He is faster then Dooku enough that he could kill him relatively quickly when Dooku's amped. He could kill Dooku even more quickly when the Count is unamped. The difference being Yoda attempted to capture Dooku on Geonosis.
Nothing notes he's hold back other then to use Shien rather then Djem So.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No I'm not otherwise Yoda could have just disarmed Dooku and captured him. He is faster then Dooku enough that he could kill him relatively quickly when Dooku's amped. He could kill Dooku even more quickly when the Count is unamped. The difference being Yoda attempted to capture Dooku on Geonosis.
Yoda was still using his preferred form. It's not like if he just waved his saber around randomly that he would be so fast that Dooku wouldn't be able to defend himself; he can't win because Yoda is fast and knows how to use a lightsaber. Dooku doesn't have to move his blade as far as his attacker, so he doesn't have to be as quick.
Nothing notes he's hold back other then to use Shien rather then Djem So.
Pretty sure the entire theme of that fight is that Anakin is holding back...
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No. I said I'd hope that would happen because you're an inhuman machine capable of pumping out posts without stop. I am not as good at constant posting as you are and will not entertain a three way debate when I'm already doing 3 other debates with you one of which addresses this very subject.
Well, then good luck, since one of the other people you're squaring off against is Ellimist, who has even more unrelenting energy than me.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yoda was still using his preferred form. It's not like if he just waved his saber around randomly that he would be so fast that Dooku wouldn't be able to defend himself; he can't win because Yoda is fast and knows how to use a lightsaber. Dooku doesn't have to move his blade as far as his attacker, so he doesn't have to be as quick.Pretty sure the entire theme of that fight is that Anakin is holding back...
And that's fine. But if Yoda used a form other then Ataru he's not going to just be swinging his blade around. Anakin is a master of Form V and is apparently skilled enough in Ataru to make modifications to it that would be taught to those using it in combat. I'm sure he's a capable user of others forms to the point he wouldn't just be "waving his lightsaber around" by employing one of them over his main one.
Well. At the end he is having his rage stoked by Sidious and he is holding back in that he's not releasing his rage but I'm referring specifically to an unhindered mental state Anakin employing Shien.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And that's fine. But if Yoda used a form other then Ataru he's not going to just be swinging his blade around. Anakin is a master of Form V and is apparently skilled enough in Ataru to make modifications to it that would be taught to those using it in combat. I'm sure he's a capable user of others forms to the point he wouldn't just be "waving his lightsaber around" by employing one of them over his main one.
Yoda's technical knowledge outstrips Anakin's, so I'd say Yoda using djem so would fare better against Dooku than Anakin would using, say, makashi. But that doesn't really contradict the idea that Anakin is as powerful.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yoda's technical knowledge outstrips Anakin's, so I'd say Yoda using djem so would fare better against Dooku than Anakin would using, say, makashi. But that doesn't really contradict the idea that Anakin is as powerful.
Well that's not just because of Yoda's greater knowledge but because of Djem So's inherent advantage over Makashi which is clearly demonstrated when Anakin switches the forms he's using. That's my point. It's not so much Anakin's being held back by using another form but the inherent advantage of Djem So over Makashi along with his own skill in it just pushes him past Dooku in regards to lightsaber combat.
Also Yoda using a form NOT inherently advantaged against Makashi managed to drive an amped Dooku back just as quickly.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well that's not just because of Yoda's greater knowledge but because of Djem So's inherent advantage over Makashi which is clearly demonstrated when Anakin switches the forms he's using. That's my point. It's not so much Anakin's being held back by using another form but the inherent advantage of Djem So over Makashi along with his own skill in it just pushes him past Dooku in regards to lightsaber combat.Also Yoda using a form NOT inherently advantaged against Makashi managed to drive an amped Dooku back just as quickly.
Why do you assume that it's just a matter of form match-ups, and not because Anakin was just more familiar with djem so? Or that Anakin was growing stronger through the fight (per the script)?
And if you look carefully at the novelization's detail of the fight, you'll see lots of things Anakin pulled off that have little to do with his form. When Dooku was on the verge of blacking out from Anakin's strike's, it's not like djem so magically makes you 100x stronger. When Dooku's knowledge of the Force had turned into a "joke", that clearly had nothing to do with any technical disparity. It was a lot more than form match-ups.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why do you assume that it's just a matter of form match-ups, and not because Anakin was just more familiar with djem so? Or that Anakin was growing stronger through the fight (per the script)?And if you look carefully at the novelization's detail of the fight, you'll see lots of things Anakin pulled off that have little to do with his form. When Dooku was on the verge of blacking out from Anakin's strike's, it's not like djem so magically makes you 100x stronger. When Dooku's knowledge of the Force had turned into a "joke", that clearly had nothing to do with any technical disparity. It was a lot more than form match-ups.
Because your claim is that Anakin is Yoda level in power and if that was the case then given Yoda's performance against Dooku simply not being as experienced using one form wouldn't make up for the disparity that should exist. The form advantage just helps to further explain the difference in his performance pre and post form shift.
It's obvious Djem So allows Anakin to apply far more kinetic force behind his blows but there is merit to what you're saying about Anakin growing stronger throughout the fight. You understand that this is because he's unconsciously drawing on his rage as he fights Dooku and when he realizes this he clamps down on what he's doing which puts him pretty much back down to only moderately above the level he was at when employing Shien ( which makes sense given he still has the form advantage ) and clamping down on his rage.
To elaborate. As the fight continues Anakin's mental barriers keeping him from drawing on his rage begins to slip which allows Anakin to do better the longer the fight goes on till Dooku points this out to him. It's like a nuclear reactor leaking and the leak being pointed out so a technician fixes it. The energy caused by that radiation leak is now gone.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Because your claim is that Anakin is Yoda level in power and if that was the case then given Yoda's performance against Dooku simply not being as experienced using one form wouldn't make up for the disparity that should exist.
1. Why not? You keep claiming that Yoda could use a random form he's never practiced before and own Dooku, but I see no evidence for that.
2. If not, why would they bother using ploy forms in the first place?
2. Anakin also wasn't going all-out...
The form advantage just helps to further explain the difference in his pre and post form shift performance.
You mean it's a direct function of how seriously Anakin was taking the fight. You're still assuming that using a ploy form while holding back doesn't handicap you at all, even though the entire point of those ploy forms was to make Dooku underestimate them.
It's obvious Djem So allows Anakin to apply far more kinetic force behind his blows but there is merit to what you're saying about Anakin growing stronger throughout the fight. You understand that this is because he's unconsciously drawing on his rage as he fights Dooku and when he realizes this he clamps down on what he's doing which puts him pretty much back down to only moderately above the level he was at when using Shien ( which makes sense given he still has the form advantage ).
You're assuming that the Anakin who is clamping down on his rage is equivalent to a normal Anakin who wasn't harnessing any. I'd beg to differ; Anakin's expending energy and willpower trying to suppress his emotions, and is clearly emotionally conflicted; this would make him weaker than usual. So there's no contradiction between those sections of his performance and the well-corroborated sources comparing him to Yoda in power.
Your position would be more sensible before TCW came out; now we can see that Anakin is already giving Dooku a run for his money throughout that series, and then grows massively more powerful in RotS, and so there's no doubt that he's underperforming at the beginning of their final encounter.