Originally posted by Rebel95
No, Pablo stated that was Vader in his prime, which would apply to Knightfall Vader as well. Anakin felt his powers increasing as soon as he tapped into the darkside, so that would put Vader>knightfall vader>Anakin.As for Lucas' quote, saying that his ability to use the force diminished, he's referring to his lost potential. But Vader made up for this loss by his mastery over the force. And in the new canon, there's not even any evidence that he lost his potential.
Pablo also stated Vader is > Yoda, and Fisto is > Maul. Mistakes were made. Besides, he isn't as big an authority as Lucas, nor is he referring to the EU.
Lucas' quote directly states abilities(the definition being skill with something, basically) and use of, so it is actualized power since it refers to Anakin's use of and skill with the Force.
Originally posted by MythLord
Pablo also stated Vader is > Yoda, and Fisto is > Maul. Mistakes were made. Besides, he isn't as big an authority as Lucas, nor is he referring to the EU.Lucas' quote directly states abilities(the definition being skill with something, basically) and use of, so it is actualized power since it refers to Anakin's use of and skill with the Force.
He said his abilities to use the force diminished, meaning his ability to tap into his raw power and potential. Vader went on to make up for this with mastering the force. And like I said, in canon, there is no evidence saying he lost potential or diminsihed his force abilities. Canon, at least for me, takes precedence over EU.
Originally posted by Rebel95
He has more authority in the new canon.
And I'm talking about the EU here, where Lucas' word is > Higaldo's.
Originally posted by Rebel95
He said his abilities to use the force diminished, meaning his ability to tap into his raw power and potential. Vader went on to make up for this with mastering the force. And like I said, in canon, there is no evidence saying he lost potential or diminsihed his force abilities. Canon, at least for me, takes precedence over EU.
Oh Christ, how can you not fathom something so simple... His abilities and use of the Force diminished. His skill with the Force, the way he uses it, etc. diminished. This is actualized power since Anakin can't use his full potential unless he's reached it, which he hasn't by RotS.
A blind monkey could've understood by now, and quite frankly I think you do too, you're just grasping at straws.
I really don't care if Canon takes precedence over EU for you, because I'm discussing the EU here specifically.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. But in discussing Vader's prime its obviously pre-suit Vader by your estimation.2. OK. Maybe do it yourself tho.
3. 😕
4. Who cares, it wouldn't happen to Yoda. And the Databank also says his power "barely" gave him an edge over his apprentices, also wouldn't happen to Yoda.
1. In lightsaber combat, indeed.
2. I trust them enough.
3. 🙂
4. Well, we're beginning to deviate from the point here. Yoda's obviously far more powerful than Dooku. Lightsaber combat is a different story.
Originally posted by MythLord
And I'm talking about the EU here, where Lucas' word is > Higaldo's.Oh Christ, how can you not fathom something so simple... His abilities and use of the Force diminished. His skill with the Force, the way he uses it, etc. diminished. This is actualized power since Anakin can't use his full potential unless he's reached it, which he hasn't by RotS.
A blind monkey could've understood by now, and quite frankly I think you do too, you're just grasping at straws.
I really don't care if Canon takes precedence over EU for you, because I'm discussing the EU here specifically.
Ok, that's great you're discussing the EU, in canon though (which takes precedence over legends btw), Vader is without a doubt > Anakin. In the EU, the evidence still points to Vader.
Originally posted by Rebel95
Lol, I'm not grasping at straws, I think it's pretty obvious that Lucas is referring to his potential. I think that's always been the general consensus. It's clear from many of Vader's force feats that his ability to use the force definitely did not diminish. Vader's mastery over the force, which is clearly superior to Anakin's, makes up for this lost potential. It's pretty simple really.
It isn't the general consensus, lmao. It's the general consensus of Anakin lowballers/Vader brigade, yeah, but actually skilled debaters -- Nova, Ant, etc. -- very much realize it refers to actualized power.
Feats only is a stupid way to look at it, since Vader's feats nigh-equal Yoda, but we know Yoda is > him by a considerable margin based on his standing next to Sidious. And honestly, every one of Vader's feats can:
1. Either be scaled to Anakin(pretty much any Vader feat until TFU)
2. Can be replicated by Anakin
So no, none of Vader's feats suggest he's > Anakin, especially not when there's a direct quote that states his abilities and use of the Force diminished. Again, please note the two words. I assume you speak English so you should know that an ability is "talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area" and that use of clearly refers to someone using something. It is actualized power, no matter how you spin it.
Arguing otherwise would make you either retarded or illiterate, and I doubt you're either, so focus a bit or go back to pre-school.
Originally posted by Rebel95
Ok, that's great you're discussing the EU, in canon though (which takes precedence over legends btw), Vader is without a doubt > Anakin. In the EU, the evidence still points to Vader.
Well in canon, we only have Vader's opinion to go off of, so... And I really don't care about Canon since I'm discussing the EU, so stop leading me down a useless tangent, please.
Originally posted by Beniboybling4. Who cares, it wouldn't happen to Yoda. And the Databank also says his power "barely" gave him an edge over his apprentices, also wouldn't happen to Yoda.
Also, are you sure? TCW came dangerously close to having Maul pin Sidious to a wall and Ahsoka surviving Sidious' Lightning. Never underestimate the stupidity of Filoni. 🙂
Originally posted by MythLord
It isn't the general consensus, lmao. It's the general consensus of Anakin lowballers/Vader brigade, yeah, but actually skilled debaters -- Nova, Ant, etc. -- very much realize it refers to actualized power.Feats only is a stupid way to look at it, since Vader's feats nigh-equal Yoda, but we know Yoda is > him by a considerable margin based on his standing next to Sidious. And honestly, every one of Vader's feats can:
1. Either be scaled to Anakin(pretty much any Vader feat until TFU)
2. Can be replicated by AnakinSo no, none of Vader's feats suggest he's > Anakin, especially not when there's a direct quote that states his abilities and use of the Force diminished. Again, please note the two words. I assume you speak English so you should know that an ability is "talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area" and that use of clearly refers to someone using something. It is actualized power, no matter how you spin it.
Arguing otherwise would make you either retarded or illiterate, and I doubt you're either, so focus a bit or go back to pre-school.
Well in canon, we only have Vader's opinion to go off of, so... And I really don't care about Canon since I'm discussing the EU, so stop leading me down a useless tangent, please.
Also, if you go back and look at several of my posts, I'm clearly not looking at it from a feats only perspective, as I've posted several quotes that clearly state Vader has increased in power: The quote from ROTS stating that Anakin's powers increased as he tapped into the darkside shows us that pre suit Vader>Anakin. The several quotes, which include the LOTS quote, the Beware the Sith quote, and the ROTJ quote, all show that Vader>pre suit Vader, which means Vader>Anakin.
Your argument is that Lucas states that Vader's ability to use the force diminished. By the way, I understand both the word "ability" and "use", and I agree his ability to use the force diminished, considering half his body was removed. That doesn't mean he can't make up for the loss by increasing his mastery over the force through 20+ years of training in the darkside under the most powerful sith lord of all time, not sure what's so hard to understand about that. He lost his potential, but he obviously made up for it. Not saying he reached what his potential was, but he made up for a good amount and became more powerful/masterful than he was before.
The evidence that supports Vader outweighs the evidence for Anakin by a lot, which is why I believe that Vader>Anakin. And fyi, I'm not an Anakin lowballer/Vader brigade, Anakin/Vader is my favorite character and I enjoy both characters equally, so don't accuse me of being so.
And on a side note, I don't appreciate the condescending remarks, so unless you want to have a civilized conversation, don't bother responding.