KEK, when Vader felt more power than ever before, he was drawing on Palpatine's risidual Force presence/DS nexus. Not to mention the databank confirms Vader thinks Anakin is a different entity entirely.
The only people grasping at straws are the Vader brigade and their inability to accept that Anakin is just better.
ROTS: "He knelt before Darth Sidious, adopting the mantle of Darth Vader. Tapping into the dark side, Anakin felt his powers increasing."
Lords of the Sith: "His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."
Rebels: Dave Filoni states this is Vader in his prime, putting him >pre suit vader
Beware the Sith: states that Vader is more powerful than the last time he and Obi Wan fought, again, putting him >pre suit vader
ROTJ: "His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been" same as above(puts him above pre suit vader, along with anakin)
I believe there's more but I'll get them later, it's late and I have class early tomorrow
Originally posted by Rebel95
There's no proof that he was drawing on Palpatine's power. Just another excuse to debunk one of the many statements that puts Vader over Anakin. And there's many more. I've already provided the evidence, if you don't agree, I'm sorry. To me it seems pretty clear that Vader>Anakin.
Really? No proof? Read again:
"It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power"
-- RotJ novelisation
He was being engorged with the waves of power that were resonating from the Emperor. Seems pretty clear cut Vader's being amplified.
The evidence that says Vader is > Anakin only refers to the hindered, Mustafar Anakin that, as we know, is a weakened version of himself.
Originally posted by SunRazer
True, but the novel proves it for me anyhow 🙂
❌
Originally posted by SunRazer
Significant in that Anakin's is better, nothing else.
There's a difference between better and significantly better 😬
Originally posted by SunRazer
Quote it.Anyway, if Yoda did use Soresu, then Dooku wouldn't be having a form advantage over Ataru anymore. So it's hardly embarrassing either way.
Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust.
But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
--Attack of the Clones
Doesn't sound like Ataru at all, where you use leaps for defense. It's more comparable to Kenobi's Soresu's description from the RotS novel.
And no, using Soresu for defense doesn't suddenly nullify Dooku's edge, since the defensive part of the duel is irrelevant anyway.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Likewise, Ataru's weakness to multiple enemies was circumvented by Yoda on sheer merit of his skill and speed; I think one could safely assume that Yoda also circumvented Ataru's weak defense.At such a high level of skill, I would assume that most stylistic advantages or disadvantages are rendered fairly irrelevant. Mechanical attributes like physical traits could still leave a certain form at a disadvantage, but things like having a strong or weak defense likely don't matter, as does things like facing multiple enemies.
Except that's hardly true. Dooku exploited Anakin's Djem So mobility issue, Dooku fell to Vos's unpredictability, Qui-Gon couldn't overcome Ataru's weakness to confined space, Fisto couldn't overcome Shii-Cho's inherent weakness toward Makashi. And I'm sure there are many more examples.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that Dooku fought Anakin a lot and was familiar with Djem So doesn't preclude him from being surprised by a sudden form switch.
Yes it does. He wasn't surprised when Yoda switched from Soresu to Ataru.
Originally posted by SunRazer
But if we're arguing it from the context of RotS, especially the novel, it wouldn't be hard to just quote the opening passage that declares Anakin as the supreme Jedi warrior, and leave it at that.
You might try that.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't make Dooku slower, it just makes him more surprised and panicky, which would lead to him exaggerating his opponents' performances.
Sure, but by the same logic he was also suprised by enraged Anakin's performance so we can also dismiss the entirety of that. :Iwin:
Originally posted by SunRazer
Although if we're playing the "majority of sources" game, Dooku was faster than Obi-Wan, not the other way around. Obi-Wan moving faster than Dooku or giving Dooku that sort of trouble or panic with his "bewilderingly fast" movements is exclusive to the RotS novel.
Considering 90% of the Anakin wank and the entirety of our current debate is based on Anakin's performance in the RotS novel, that's a pretty weak excuse.
A lot of the quotes are actually Vader trying to "crush Anakin" and all memories of his life as a Jedi by falling under the belief that he's stronger and better than he was as a Jedi.
Whereas Lucas and the RotS novel confirm that the Mustafar incident curbed "a lot of his ability to use the Force", meaning that suited RotS Vader would be far, far less powerful. Now, RotJ Vader does have two decades on RotS Vader, but he's still not in the same league as Yoda or Palpatine with the Force.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
❌
Yes 🙂
There's a difference between better and significantly better 😬
Even though I only said the former and not the latter?
Doesn't sound like Ataru at all, where you use leaps for defense. It's more comparable to Kenobi's Soresu's description from the RotS novel.And no, using Soresu for defense doesn't suddenly nullify Dooku's edge, since the defensive part of the duel is irrelevant anyway.
Well, we've seen Qui-Gon do that for Ataru. But if it's irrelevant, then we might as well not cite it.
Besides, Insider #62: Fightsaber makes a point of only being able to begin to understand Yoda's form once you've understood all seven forms and how they're used, IIRC. Which would include Soresu.
But since we did bring up the "defensive part", Dooku was already tired from that, meaning that Yoda had the advantage as soon as he began to actually attack. Whereas Dooku had expelled his fatigue by the time Zonakin came around. If we're citing Anakin vs Dooku earlier on in the book, then Dooku did find fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin earlier to be "tiring", but it didn't seem like anything comparable to his fatigue against Yoda.
Except that's hardly true. Dooku exploited Anakin's Djem So mobility issue, Dooku fell to Vos's unpredictability, Qui-Gon couldn't overcome Ataru's weakness to confined space, Fisto couldn't overcome Shii-Cho's inherent weakness toward Makashi. And I'm sure there are many more examples.
I was discussing Legends (with you, anyway), so Vos doesn't count. And surely you don't think Qui-Gon and Kit are comparable to Yoda in any way, hence my point about duelists of this caliber being relatively safe from such things.
Yes it does. He wasn't surprised when Yoda switched from Soresu to Ataru.
Maybe because he didn't?
You might try that.
Say I did. What's your response? I assume you know full well what I'm referring to.
Sure, but by the same logic he was also suprised by enraged Anakin's performance so we can also dismiss the entirety of that. :Iwin:
I didn't say he performed worse (although he could've). I said the panic would've likely caused him to exaggerate his opponent's performance.
Considering 90% of the Anakin wank and the entirety of our current debate is based on Anakin's performance in the RotS novel, that's a pretty weak excuse.
I thought our debate was just Zonakin vs Yoda. But again, if we run off the RotS novel, then:
This is Anakin Skywalker:The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.
He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
-- Revenge of the Sith
Which settles the debate on strength or speed. Yoda's more skilled per other quotes.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Even though I only said the former and not the latter?
You hold the stance that Anakin performed so much better that it's not only make up for his stylistic edge over Dooku, but for Dooku's over Yoda. So you might as well have said the later.
Btw, Yoda vs Dooku is 29sec long, while Zonakin vs Dooku is 34sec.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, we've seen Qui-Gon do that for Ataru. But if it's irrelevant, then we might as well not cite it.Besides, Insider #62: Fightsaber makes a point of only being able to begin to understand Yoda's form once you've understood all seven forms and how they're used, IIRC. Which would include Soresu.
So he used Soresu, thanks for the concession.
Originally posted by SunRazer
But since we did bring up the "defensive part", Dooku was already tired from that, meaning that Yoda had the advantage as soon as he began to actually attack. Whereas Dooku had expelled his fatigue by the time Zonakin came around. If we're citing Anakin vs Dooku earlier on in the book, then Dooku did find fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin earlier to be "tiring", but it didn't seem like anything comparable to his fatigue against Yoda.
And then Dooku reached further into the dark side and got even better than before. Back to square one.
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically.
--Attack of the Clones
Originally posted by SunRazer
I was discussing Legends (with you, anyway), so Vos doesn't count. And surely you don't think Qui-Gon and Kit are comparable to Yoda in any way, hence my point about duelists of this caliber being relatively safe from such things.
Why wouldn't Kit be comparable to Yoda in skill only? Besides that still leaves Anakin, your protege, whose Djem So was exploited.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe because he didn't?
He has. I expect more from you Nova than kindergarten level arguing.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Say I did. What's your response? I assume you know full well what I'm referring to.I thought our debate was just Zonakin vs Yoda. But again, if we run off the RotS novel, then:
This is Anakin Skywalker: The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace. He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it. -- Revenge of the Sith
Which settles the debate on strength or speed. Yoda's more skilled per other quotes.
My response would be:
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.
Or something like it, idk yet.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say he performed worse (although he could've). I said the panic would've likely caused him to exaggerate his opponent's performance.
And the same can be said about Zonakin 👆
Originally posted by SunRazerFair enough.
Eh. I entered the debate thinking that things like this and the novel could be used. If not, then I'll drop the point.
Yes, I did misspeak. Ask Ant for it.There is nothing he can offer me. 🙂
Well, it refers to raw power, not mastered power, obviously. Whereas in Vader's case, it'd be the latter.The difference? If this is a power he can harness in battle then I feel as if we're quibbling over semantics.
Right, whereas Sidious considered Anakin to be potentially more powerful than him.In Legends I suppose, but in Canon all we have is Sidious remarking that "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us."
Well, in fairness, Ben was fatiguing pretty hard. But then again, that's Legends. In the event of Canon, yeah, Vader isn't as strong as Yoda.Which would make pre-suit, not suited Vader, his prime. Indeed he'd be "a shadow of his former self". Yet we know that's not the case.In which case the only logical conclusion was that Vader's Force reserves were damaged enough that his suit couldn't compensate for the strength disparity between his augmented strength and Anakin's augmented strength.
In which case the logical conclusion is instead that Anakin's victory over Dooku doesn't indicate superiority over Yoda as you have presumed.
On the subject of Canon only, though, you seem to be willing to disregard material from Lucas in favor of Disney and newer sources, for Vader. If so, then why wouldn't you be willing to do the same for Dooku vs Yoda, since it seems like Canon suggests that Dooku was in fact close to Yoda?Because it hasn't been confirmed. I'm still waiting on that scan. 😉
Though given Dooku's performance in Canon I would question that inference regardless. Losing to Vos, struggling with TCW Anakin and getting ragdolled by Savage is far from Yoda material.
The junior novel is its own interpretation of the fight. You can't apply it to the film or other versions. The film script and IIRC the comic make it clear that Yoda was going for the kill.It's the interpretation given from Yoda's perspective, one that the other sources do not shed light on, and in that respect should be paid attention to. Neither does anyone source take precedence over another.Likewise, the RotS junior novel portrays Anakin and Dooku as stalemating indefinitely until Anakin became enraged, which isn't at all consistent with other depictions of the fight.
Regardless in the script Yoda rapes him lol, and in the comic he is quickly driven back and disarmed. Seems a more accurate depiction of what would happen if Yoda had really gone all-out.
Based off Canon only on the other hand i.e. going solely off-screen, its down to viewer interpretation, and given how Yoda is simply depicted as flipping about retardedly, inconclusive, I feel.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So is the close of Revenge of the Sith, in which case Vader's thoughts on the matter appear to have been rewritten.
At least the close of RotS has Lucas' word, several sources and actual logic behind it. Vader's accolades of being > Skywalker are either subjective, or are from sources referring to the hindered Mustafar Vader. mmm
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You hold the stance that Anakin performed so much better that it's not only make up for his stylistic edge over Dooku, but for Dooku's over Yoda. So you might as well have said the later.Btw, Yoda vs Dooku is 29sec long, while Zonakin vs Dooku is 34sec.
I decided to go back a few pages and see what started this entire discussion. My point was that Zonakin destroyed Dooku harder than Yoda did (which was true, since I didn't bring up circumstances), and it was actually to prove that he was above Plagueis level, not that he was above Yoda. So my point about Anakin > Plagueis still stands.
Anyways, I've already said that Yoda's more skilled, but that Anakin's faster and stronger.
So he used Soresu, thanks for the concession.
I didn't say that. But obviously Yoda's Ataru is more than just standard leaping about, as per Fightsaber.
And then Dooku reached further into the dark side and got even better than before. Back to square one.With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically.
--Attack of the Clones
The fact that he attacked faster suddenly doesn't mean he circumvented his tiredness at all, a notion contradicted by other AotC variations.
You also disregarded the fact that the AotC novel (and the junior novel) mention that his "rage" was more of a desperation thing and actually led to him missing attacks outright.
Why wouldn't Kit be comparable to Yoda in skill only?
It's not up to me to prove a negative.
Besides that still leaves Anakin, your protege, whose Djem So was exploited.
Yes, I don't have a counter for that. So we're "even".
However, the more relevant case here is Yoda, who has circumvented Ataru's weakness of fighting multiple enemies, and Ataru's weakness of blaster fire deflection. So it makes sense that he's also circumvented the weakness of a poor defense.
He has. I expect more from you Nova than kindergarten level arguing.
You still haven't proven that he used Soresu. It's up to you to back up your claims. On the other hand, my point was that Fightsaber indicates that Yoda's Ataru is so complex and masterful that you need to understand all other forms in order to comprehend it, and among those pre-requisite forms is Soresu.
My response would be:This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.
Or something like it, idk yet.
That doesn't contradict either the strength or skill part.
And Anakin may well not be considered a foe of the darkness, especially in RotS. If you take "the darkness" to be Palpatine in particular, then it definitely doesn't apply.
And the same can be said about Zonakin 👆
I don't know what you're talking about. I never used Dooku's assessment of Zonakin.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And LotS has Pablo's. Difference being? Pablo is a member of the Story Group, Lucas is in a retirement home.
Pablo refers to Canon only, Lucas' word refers to the Universe in general. 👆
And Higaldo has Vader as > Yoda and Fisto as > Maul; his opinion doesn't hold up that much.
@Beni - Just going to respond to a few points.
1. Obviously I don't view Anakin as having greater mastered power than Yoda or Sidious. All of his power quotes refer to raw power.
2. Ask Ant for the TCW visual guide quote, and ask Myth for the Dooku being close to Yoda quote.
3. So far in Canon, we only have Vader convincing himself in LotS that he's surpassed his former self.
4. Savage ragdolled a distracted Dooku in a state of immense rage. That's hardly a low showing for him. The website states that Dooku was far more powerful than Savage at the time.
Originally posted by SunRazer1. But in discussing Vader's prime its obviously pre-suit Vader by your estimation.
@Beni - Just going to respond to a few points.1. Obviously I don't view Anakin as having greater mastered power than Yoda or Sidious. All of his power quotes refer to raw power.
2. Ask Ant for the TCW visual guide quote, and ask Myth for the Dooku being close to Yoda quote.
3. So far in Canon, we only have Vader convincing himself in LotS that he's surpassed his former self.
4. Savage ragdolled a distracted Dooku in a state of immense rage. That's hardly a low showing for him. The website states that Dooku was far more powerful than Savage at the time.
2. OK. Maybe do it yourself tho.
3. 😕
4. Who cares, it wouldn't happen to Yoda. And the Databank also says his power "barely" gave him an edge over his apprentices, also wouldn't happen to Yoda.
Originally posted by MythLord
At least the close of RotS has Lucas' word, several sources and actual logic behind it. Vader's accolades of being > Skywalker are either subjective, or are from sources referring to the hindered Mustafar Vader. mmm
As for Lucas' quote, saying that his ability to use the force diminished, he's referring to his lost potential. But Vader made up for this loss by his mastery over the force. And in the new canon, there's not even any evidence that he lost his potential.