Where do YOU rank Anakin

Originally posted by Rebel95
You also forgot the quote from Lords of the Sith, saying that his injuries and suffering had strengthened his connection to the force and the dark side.

Personally, I find Vader far more impressive than he was as Anakin. The numerous statements that say he became more powerful and his feats make it pretty obvious he's > Anakin, at least to me. You should check out the Darth Vader comics, some of the stuff he does in those are beyond anything Anakin has done.

LotS was from Vader's subjective perspective, and Vader thinks he's killed Anakin Skywalker easily and that he's weak.

And nah, none of Vader's feats are up to stack with Anakin's high end feats.

Originally posted by MythLord
LotS was from Vader's subjective perspective, and Vader thinks he's killed Anakin Skywalker easily and that he's weak.

And nah, none of Vader's feats are up to stack with Anakin's high end feats.

No way, Vader's force feats are way more impressive than anything Anakin's ever done, it's really not close. I could list some for you but I'm tired and going to bed lol

Originally posted by Rebel95
Excuses, excuses.. And he thinks he was weak before as a person, not in power.

No way, Vader's force feats are way more impressive than anything Anakin's ever done, it's really not close. I could list some for you but I'm tired and going to bed lol

They aren't excuses, lol. They're actual fact. And he thinks Anakin is weak as a general, and consider Anakin a completely separate entity from himself. Whatever he thinks "strengthened him" is just his subjective wish.

Yes way, actually. Vader's Force feats can either be scaled to Anakin(since he didn't begin to touch Skywalker's power until TFU) or are inferior.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But this is the EU forum, and like 90% of the threads use EU/legends characters.

More to the point though in this thread alone you've raised Canon material (i.e. TCW and the SW Databank) to support your point, despite the fact that Canon continuity holistically disagrees with you. If your going to use Canon sources I'm afraid you can't cherry pick, otherwise just stick to Legends.

Gillard's stuff holds in Canon as well.

As in it holds no weight, yeah.

He wrote the fights and Lucas was satisfied with what he did. That's enough of a weighting to be taken seriously.

Also, which quotes in particular establish Canon Vader as more powerful, or better overall?

But not enough to save it from being overridden by actual Canon.

And for the evidence:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15944862#post15944862

Being more powerful doesn't necessarily make Vader a better combatant overall at all. So Gillard's quote stands.

Vader in his prime. Doesn't count Anakin. Also, what's the context of the quote? Doubt it matters, but I'm curious all the same.

The first quote says that pre-suit Vader > Anakin.

And the second quote says that says pre-RotJ Vader = Peak!Vader

i.e. pre-RotJ Vader > pre-suit Vader > Anakin. 👆

And Gillard says that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever, which makes him "unbeatable", so yeah he's wrong, which brings his entire outlook on the character into reasonable question.

And you'll find the contexts for Pablo's statement in the youtube link.

As I said, being more powerful doesn't make you better at everything. Traya was more powerful than the Exile, yet she lost in combat. Dooku was "far more powerful" than Savage and Ventress per the website, but website also claims that he barely had the advantage. Anakin's also tremendously more powerful than Obi-Wan, but the gap in combat doesn't match the gap in Force power.

Gillard doesn't say that Anakin's raw power makes him unbeatable anywhere. He mentions those things separately. He also obviously means "unbeatable" in the context of when he's performing at his best, since he's the one who explains the context of how Obi-Wan beats Anakin. That's reinforced by The Making of Revenge of the Sith, which states that Anakin's the most powerful Jedi ever, but mentions Gillard's explanation of the context that allows Obi-Wan to beat him.

Besides, that outlook isn't wrong at all. The RotS novel supports it, and that was personally edited and approved of by George Lucas.

1. The central issue here is that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever. In which case Canon invalidates that, that is my case.

2. If we want to argue that Anakin somehow remains a better combatant despite this, we can, but using Gillard, who believes Anakin wields Yoda+ strength, to do that, is invalid for obvious reasons.

3. Certainly Gillard's assessment aligns with Legends, particular the RotS novel, but it does not stand in Canon, which is what you claimed.

1. He is the most powerful Jedi ever. The TCW visual guide, RotS novel, Making of RotS, etc. confirms such.

Palpatine also contemplates in the novel that Anakin could well be more powerful than even him, which I doubt he ever did to Vader.

2. Invalid because you don't like it? Anakin exhibited Yoda+ strength against Dooku.

3. It does, since Canon is fundamentally built on the films, and the fights in the films were written by him. Also, the RotS novel is canon where it doesn't contradict with the films, which means that all expository writing is canon.

Forgot to reply, thanks for the reminder Beni.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Yoda doesn't have familiarity with Dooku's style?

He does, which we know helps prolong the fight (and their fight was already longer than their actual prowess dictates since Yoda was defensive for like half the fight for no apparent reason). This is pretty rich coming from someone who always argues Kenobi's performance against Mustafar Anakin was partially due to their familiarity.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku's also fought Anakin and other Djem So users before - so he's hardly unfamiliar there.

Lmao, that doesn't even begin to be comparable to a Master/Padawan relationship. Shit Nova, you couldn't be serious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention sparring a lot with Grievous, who is a avid user of "power moves".

Which was so shit that Dooku discouraged him using it, iirc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anakin's "stylistic edge" doesn't make up for the disparity. He was already seemingly moving faster and hitting harder than Yoda before the whole Zonakin part, so it seems like Anakin being the fastest and strongest Jedi is legitimate at this point. Yoda's more skilled, but Anakin's physicals are better, and when enraged, he looks to be better overall.

Kenobi moved faster than Dooku as well in the RotS novel, and Yoda overpowering Sidious in a bladelock > anally penetrating Dooku.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Forgot to reply, thanks for the reminder Beni.

He does, which we know helps prolong the fight (and their fight was already longer than their actual prowess dictates since Yoda was defensive for like half the fight for no apparent reason). This is pretty rich coming from someone who always argues Kenobi's performance against Mustafar Anakin was partially due to their familiarity.

I know that. I'm hardly discrediting it. Obviously Yoda's more skilled than Anakin, and that's supported by other quotes. But Anakin's faster and stronger per the RotS novel, and his performance against Dooku relative to Yoda's proves it as well. The force of Anakin's strikes were greater than Yoda's. That's evident.

EDIT: It's been so long that I forgot what we were arguing about - Zonakin vs Yoda in terms of performance against Dooku. In which case, the gap makes up for the "familiarity", which wouldn't be that big of a problem if you could curbstomp somebody anyway. I mean, Maul and Sidious had a master-apprentice relationship (and apparently they did spar?) but it was evident that Sidious could instantly stomp Maul as soon as he wanted to.

Lmao, that doesn't even begin to be comparable to a Master/Padawan relationship. Shit Nova, you couldn't be serious.

Obviously not, but it's there. Didn't say anything else, but it's worth noting. You don't need to put words in my mouth and then laugh at the apparent stupidity that's coming out of my mouth. It's all stuff that you put in.

Which was so shit that Dooku discouraged him using it, iirc.

Not because it was shit, but because Dooku didn't think power moves were of use at that level of skill. He was proven wrong not long after he said that, of course.

Kenobi moved faster than Dooku as well in the RotS novel, and Yoda overpowering Sidious in a bladelock > anally penetrating Dooku.

Moving faster once or twice doesn't mean shit. Anakin continuously moving his lightsaber so quickly that Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, which never happened against Yoda, is something else entirely. That comparison is terrible.

Since when did Yoda overpower Sidious in a bladelock?

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He is the most powerful Jedi ever. The TCW visual guide, RotS novel, Making of RotS, etc. confirms such.

On the other hand until Vader is shown or confirmed to be the most powerful Sith Lord ever, I won't be suspending my disbelief.

Palpatine also contemplates in the novel that Anakin could well be more powerful than even him, which I doubt he ever did to Vader.

2. Invalid because you don't like it? Anakin exhibited Yoda+ strength against Dooku.

And that's your interpretation of events, naturally I don't share it.

3. It does, since Canon is fundamentally built on the films, and the fights in the films were written by him. Also, the RotS novel is canon where it doesn't contradict with the films, which means that all expository writing is canon.

And the RotS novel was stated by Del Rey's Twitter (yet to be confirmed by Disney or even their own timeline) that the novelisations are Canon were they align with the films. Do not conflate that with contradict. So no, all the expository stuff is not Canon given its not in the movie. And take note that Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever does not explicitly align with anything said or even seen on screen.

1. The Making of RotS is canon, I believe. And no, I'm not talking about the TCW visual guide. There's a quote that Ant didn't want me to put in my RT about how "even the most powerful Jedi can get injured" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously).

2. Doesn't compare.

3. Show me where Canon suggests that Yoda hurt Dooku with his strength more than Anakin did. Because if we're taking films only, then it's about the same, at worst.

4. You've shown me that Disney's going in a different direction with regard to Force power, but that doesn't mean overall combative ability, which you've accepted.

5. Timelines only ever refer to a source once, not all of its variations, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul destroyed a weaker Savage harder than a toying Sidious did a stronger one, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So Maul should be roughly equal with Sidious in that fight, right?

Because?

On a side note, if we're running off Canon and invalidating novelizations etc, that would mean that Anakin was just better than Dooku, and not that it was Zonakin.

So he still defeated Dooku in a timespan that Yoda couldn't do it in, and there's no "master-apprentice relationship", "form advantage" or any of that if we're going off movies only. So in terms of that strict definition of "canon only", then it does seem like Gillard's position isn't so silly after all.