Where do YOU rank Anakin

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know that. I'm hardly discrediting it. Obviously Yoda's more skilled than Anakin, and that's supported by other quotes. But Anakin's faster and stronger per the RotS novel, and his performance against Dooku relative to Yoda's proves it as well. The force of Anakin's strikes were greater than Yoda's. That's evident.

Considering that Anakin uses a strength based style while Yoda uses a speed based style that's hardly proves Anakin is stronger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
EDIT: It's been so long that I forgot what we were arguing about - Zonakin vs Yoda in terms of performance against Dooku. In which case, the gap makes up for the "familiarity", which wouldn't be that big of a problem if you could curbstomp somebody anyway. I mean, Maul and Sidious had a master-apprentice relationship (and apparently they did spar?) but it was evident that Sidious could instantly stomp Maul as soon as he wanted to.

Maul's shit we know that, idk what does have to do with this. And I don't know what gap are you talking about. Yoda after going on the offensive outclassed Dooku by the same timeframe Anakin did.

Yoda with hilarious ease defending from Dooku with Soresu which is not even his main style is just as impressive, if not more, as Anakin shitting on him offensively.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Obviously not, but it's there. Didn't say anything else, but it's worth noting. You don't need to put words in my mouth and then laugh at the apparent stupidity that's coming out of my mouth. It's all stuff that you put in.

You thought it's important enough to make a note of it, which is ridiculous. Almost every PT era force user fought against all of the forms, doesn't mean they gain some edge of it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not because it was shit, but because Dooku didn't think power moves were of use at that level of skill. He was proven wrong not long after he said that, of course.

So? How does this even begin to mean Dooku wasn't inherently disadvantaged against Anakin's Djem So?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Moving faster once or twice doesn't mean shit. Anakin continuously moving his lightsaber so quickly that Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, which never happened against Yoda, is something else entirely. That comparison is terrible.

Nah it's a perfectly viable comparison. If Kenobi can move faster than Dooku several times and Anakin can do it constantly, that hardly puts him above Yoda, when Yoda matched the speed of Sidious who can pretty much blitz Kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Since when did Yoda overpower Sidious in a bladelock?

Originally posted by SunRazer
On a side note, if we're running off Canon and invalidating novelizations etc, that would mean that Anakin was just better than Dooku, and not that it was Zonakin.

He first defeated Obi-Wan, Force choking him and nearly crushing the Jedi Master with a heavy railing. An enraged Anakin continued the fight, unleashing a strength Dooku had not anticipated. The young Jedi cut off the Sith Lord’s hands, drew Dooku’s lightsaber to him, and the Separatist leader fell to his knees.
--starwars.com

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The Making of RotS is canon, I believe. And no, I'm not talking about the TCW visual guide. There's a quote that Ant didn't want me to put in my RT about how "even the most powerful Jedi can get injured" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously).

And you just said you were talking about the TCW visual guide, so which source is it?

2. Doesn't compare.

3. Show me where Canon invalidates Anakin vs Dooku in terms of strength.

4. You've shown me that Disney's going in a different direction with regard to Force power, but that doesn't mean overall combative ability, which you've accepted.

5. Timelines only ever refer to a source once, not all of its variations, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Considering that Anakin uses a strength based style while Yoda uses a speed based style that's hardly proves Anakin is stronger.

Well, when we refer to Yoda's strength, we refer to it in the context of him in battle, which would mean he's using Ataru. The same goes for Anakin and Djem So.

We don't assume that Yoda would use Djem So in a comparison like this.

Maul's shit we know that, idk what does have to do with this. And I don't know what gap are you talking about. Yoda after going on the offensive outclassed Dooku by the same timeframe Anakin did.

Maul's fine and close enough to Dooku.

I'll check the times tomorrow, but for what it's worth, Anakin actually defeated Dooku, whereas Yoda was about to but didn't quite do it.

Yoda with hilarious ease defending from Dooku with Soresu which is not even his main style is just as impressive, if not more, as Anakin shitting on him offensively.

Soresu? Where's this shit coming from?

You thought it's important enough to make a note of it, which is ridiculous. Almost every PT era force user fought against all of the forms, doesn't mean they gain some edge of it.

Dooku fought against Anakin numerous times. He has more of a familiarity than your average PT joe vs any form.

So? How does this even begin to mean Dooku wasn't inherently disadvantaged against Anakin's Djem So?

I didn't say it did. It does somewhat lessen the advantage, though.

Nah it's a perfectly viable comparison. If Kenobi can move faster than Dooku several times and Anakin can do it constantly, that hardly puts him above Yoda, when Yoda matched the speed of Sidious who can pretty much blitz Kenobi.

Sorry, but no. Obi-Wan moved faster than Dooku, what, once or twice, when Dooku was surprised by the sudden form switch and what not? Doesn't compare.

Overpowering in the loosest sense of the word, but whatever.

He first defeated Obi-Wan, Force choking him and nearly crushing the Jedi Master with a heavy railing. An enraged Anakin continued the fight, unleashing a strength Dooku had not anticipated. The young Jedi cut off the Sith Lord’s hands, drew Dooku’s lightsaber to him, and the Separatist leader fell to his knees.
--starwars.com

Ah, great, we've found it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because of their comparable performance against Savage?

You mean when Sidious was holding back immensely?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If your referring to the book it was published in 2005, so no. If your referring to the video commentary then I don't think that has any Canon status bar the authority of the speakers in it. In this case, none.

It's RotS supplementary material.

And you just said you were talking about the TCW visual guide, so which source is it?

The quote's also from the TCW Visual Guide, is it not? Ask Ant. What other TCW guides are there?

Right, is that supposed to mean something?

Yeah, that Sidious being afraid of Vader becoming a risk to him at some point in the future doesn't compare to Sidious acknowledging that Anakin might be more powerful than himself in the present. And later admitting that Anakin's skills were unparalleled amongst all Sith, including himself.

You say that as if your interpretation of Anakin vs Dooku is factual. On the other hand, sure, Vader being nowhere near Yoda-tier in strength.

Vader being nowhere near Yoda-tier in strength? What's this based on? Have we even seen the limits of Vader's strength in the suit?

In terms of say speed, agility or skill as a result of Vader's suit. But strength? On what basis? Vader's suit didn't hinder his strength in anyway, only amplified it, and nothing else should hinder his ability to channel his Force power into physical dominance. In fact, its intrinsic to his style.

I didn't say Anakin was stronger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's RotS supplementary material.

The quote's also from the TCW Visual Guide, is it not? Ask Ant. What other TCW guides are there?

Yeah, that Sidious being afraid of Vader becoming a risk to him at some point in the future doesn't compare to Sidious acknowledging that Anakin might be more powerful than himself in the present. And later admitting that Anakin's skills were unparalleled amongst all Sith, including himself.

And for the record, he said the same thing about Vader. Naturally excluding himself though, because Sidious > Vader.

Vader being nowhere near Yoda-tier in strength? What's this based on? Have we even seen the limits of Vader's strength in the suit?

I didn't say Anakin was stronger.

Also to weigh in on the Yoda vs Dooku debate, reading over the novelisations I'm finding that for the most part Yoda stays on the defence, the junior novelisation also states:

The Count's attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, when we refer to Yoda's strength, we refer to it in the context of him in battle, which would mean he's using Ataru. The same goes for Anakin and Djem So.

We don't assume that Yoda would use Djem So in a comparison like this.

Hardly. You tried to prove Anakin is more powerful, by default, than Yoda by comparing the power of their strokes even though they are incomparable.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul's fine and close enough to Dooku.

I'll check the times tomorrow, but for what it's worth, Anakin actually defeated Dooku, whereas Yoda was about to but didn't quite do it.

True, but you paint it as if their performance is significantly different, but if you take context and circumstances into account they actually aren't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Soresu? Where's this shit coming from?

From the description of the novel. But if you want to argue that Yoda used Ataru for defense then that makes Dooku's performance even more hilariously bad. I'm game.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku fought against Anakin numerous times. He has more of a familiarity than your average PT joe vs any form.

Not in the context of the RotS novel though. And you are trying to argue it from both sides. On one hand you bring up that the duo's switch of form caughed Dooku offguard and on the other you argue that he fought Anakin a lot. Pick.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say it did. It does somewhat lessen the advantage, though.

Same as above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, but no. Obi-Wan moved faster than Dooku, what, once or twice, when Dooku was surprised by the sudden form switch and what not? Doesn't compare.

3 times actually, one of them far after the form switch. Besides how does a form switch makes Dooku slower?

"He knelt before Darth Sidious, adopting the mantle of Darth Vader. Tapping into the dark side, Anakin felt his powers increasing." -ROTS
So we can assume pre suit Vader>Anakin

"His power was great now, greater than it had ever been" -ROTJ
Now we can assume Vader>pre suit Vader

Add that to numerous other quotes and statements that say Vader is more powerful, along with his far superior force feats, I think it's safe to say Vader>pre suit Vader>Anakin

Originally posted by Rebel95
"He knelt before Darth Sidious, adopting the mantle of Darth Vader. Tapping into the dark side, Anakin felt his powers increasing." -ROTS
So we can assume pre suit Vader>Anakin

"His power was great now, greater than it had ever been" -ROTJ
Now we can assume Vader>pre suit Vader

Add that to numerous other quotes and statements that say Vader is more powerful, along with his far superior force feats, I think it's safe to say Vader>pre suit Vader>Anakin

Pretty much yeah. Although Zonakin's place in that equation probably isn't so easy to nail.

RotJ Vader > RotS Anakin > FE Malgus.

Hope we can all agree on that.

And that Cade > pre-Mustafar Vader > Tau > RotS Anakin > Soa.

Slightly below Windu, but above Dooku.

This thread is the new focal point of cancer on KMC.

Originally posted by Rebel95
"He knelt before Darth Sidious, adopting the mantle of Darth Vader. Tapping into the dark side, Anakin felt his powers increasing." -ROTS
So we can assume pre suit Vader>Anakin

"His power was great now, greater than it had ever been" -ROTJ
Now we can assume Vader>pre suit Vader

Add that to numerous other quotes and statements that say Vader is more powerful, along with his far superior force feats, I think it's safe to say Vader>pre suit Vader>Anakin

Not that a quote from 1983 overrules the quotes the other guy listed either, though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's nice, still not Canon.

Eh. I entered the debate thinking that things like this and the novel could be used. If not, then I'll drop the point.

I'm asking you lol. You just said "I'm not talking about the TCW Visual Guide", I assume you misspoke, in which case I await the full quote. Then I'll hit you up with Hondo vs Anakin and we can all have a good laugh about it.

Yes, I did misspeak. Ask Ant for it.

OK, I assume you were referring to something else. Like Vader being more powerful than the most powerful Jedi ever. Which is problematic for obvious reasons.

Well, it refers to raw power, not mastered power, obviously. Whereas in Vader's case, it'd be the latter.

And for the record, he said the same thing about Vader. Naturally excluding himself though, because Sidious > Vader.

Right, whereas Sidious considered Anakin to be potentially more powerful than him.

Not crushing Ahsoka? Not crushing Ben? Not crushing Luke? It's obvious he's not on Yoda's level, let alone beyond it. And I see no reason to believe he was holding back against anyone other than ESB Luke (though he appears to go all-out at the end).

Then it's a concession then, because Vader being stronger than Yoda is ****ing ridiculous. 😂

Well, in fairness, Ben was fatiguing pretty hard. But then again, that's Legends. In the event of Canon, yeah, Vader isn't as strong as Yoda.

In which case the only logical conclusion was that Vader's Force reserves were damaged enough that his suit couldn't compensate for the strength disparity between his augmented strength and Anakin's augmented strength.

On the subject of Canon only, though, you seem to be willing to disregard material from Lucas in favor of Disney and newer sources, for Vader. If so, then why wouldn't you be willing to do the same for Dooku vs Yoda, since it seems like Canon suggests that Dooku was in fact close to Yoda?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also to weigh in on the Yoda vs Dooku debate, reading over the novelisations I'm finding that for the most part Yoda stays on the defence, the junior novelisation also states:Given that, a comparison between Anakin, who was going all-out and for the kill, becomes even more strained.

The junior novel is its own interpretation of the fight. You can't apply it to the film or other versions. The film script and IIRC the comic make it clear that Yoda was going for the kill.

Likewise, the RotS junior novel portrays Anakin and Dooku as stalemating indefinitely until Anakin became enraged, which isn't at all consistent with other depictions of the fight.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Hardly. You tried to prove Anakin is more powerful, by default, than Yoda by comparing the power of their strokes even though they are incomparable.

True, but the novel proves it for me anyhow 🙂

True, but you paint it as if their performance is significantly different, but if you take context and circumstances into account they actually aren't.

Significant in that Anakin's is better, nothing else.

From the description of the novel. But if you want to argue that Yoda used Ataru for defense then that makes Dooku's performance even more hilariously bad. I'm game.

Quote it.

Anyway, if Yoda did use Soresu, then Dooku wouldn't be having a form advantage over Ataru anymore. So it's hardly embarrassing either way.

Likewise, Ataru's weakness to multiple enemies was circumvented by Yoda on sheer merit of his skill and speed; I think one could safely assume that Yoda also circumvented Ataru's weak defense.

At such a high level of skill, I would assume that most stylistic advantages or disadvantages are rendered fairly irrelevant. Mechanical attributes like physical traits could still leave a certain form at a disadvantage, but things like having a strong or weak defense likely don't matter, as does things like facing multiple enemies.

Not in the context of the RotS novel though. And you are trying to argue it from both sides. On one hand you bring up that the duo's switch of form caughed Dooku offguard and on the other you argue that he fought Anakin a lot. Pick.

The fact that Dooku fought Anakin a lot and was familiar with Djem So doesn't preclude him from being surprised by a sudden form switch.

But if we're arguing it from the context of RotS, especially the novel, it wouldn't be hard to just quote the opening passage that declares Anakin as the supreme Jedi warrior, and leave it at that.

3 times actually, one of them far after the form switch. Besides how does a form switch makes Dooku slower?

It doesn't make Dooku slower, it just makes him more surprised and panicky, which would lead to him exaggerating his opponents' performances.

Although if we're playing the "majority of sources" game, Dooku was faster than Obi-Wan, not the other way around. Obi-Wan moving faster than Dooku or giving Dooku that sort of trouble or panic with his "bewilderingly fast" movements is exclusive to the RotS novel.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vader separates himself from Anakin. He doesn't consider them the same person.

Not that a quote from 1983 overrules the quotes the other guy listed either, though.

There's not "numerous other quotes". It's only Beware the Sith.