Phoenix vs Mystics

another thread raised my curiosity about the force compared to other mystic entities. let's say it's jean in full command of the full force--dark phoenix incarnation but with the full force behind her. all fights take place in space, all entities operate as though in their home realms. how far she makes it?

1. mephisto
2. odin
3. dormammu
4. cyttorak
5. chthon
6. vishanti
7. shuma

order may be arguable--these mystic demon types are notoriously tough to gauge--so feel free to adjust if you feel it truly warranted. how many of them can the full force, out to kill/devour, take out?

I honestly don't see her getting past one.

really? i get the pf hasn't been shown in the best light at times, but i think dark phoenix jean could have had mephisto as a light snack....could be i'm wrong though. i def see the pf as universal level, and mephisto isn't close to that imo not ecen in hell. /shrug

@Leo
Don't forget, Mephisto himself is a universal power. His fight with Galactus in Hell was wrecking the universe. He messed with Marvel continuity during the "One More Day" story arc. There's more insane things he's done but you get the idea.

I honestly believe the PF is planetary level at best now.

leo wants us to use the PF at its *best* here.

The Hell Lords are all powerful in respected dimensions. Anyone looking to pick a fight against in their home dimensions must be in the same class of power as "Cosmic Abstracts - Space Gods", to challenge and best them.

"Celestials, Proemial Gods, The Watchers, Galactus", these are being who are omnipotent onto themselves, and are able to carry that omnipotence where ever they go. The Phoenix Force falls within that classification, and as such should be able to contend with the Hell Lords.

Originally posted by Galan007
leo wants us to use the PF at its *best* here.

Even the Classic PF really doesn't have much in way of showings vs cosmic beings. We got a panel back during the Dark Phoenix Saga where Reed's instruments gauged DP's power as 'rivaling that of Galactus'. This is pretty impressive because DP admitted that her power was finite at that point and needed time to grow :

There's a What If I wanted a mod ruling on but I'll leave that for later.

So this is WPOTC?

Originally posted by "Id"
The Hell Lords are all powerful in respected dimensions. Anyone looking to pick a fight against in their home dimensions must be in the same class of power as "Cosmic Abstracts - Space Gods", to challenge and best them.

"Celestials, Proemial Gods, The Watchers, Galactus", these are being who are omnipotent onto themselves, and are able to carry that omnipotence where ever they go. The Phoenix Force falls within that classification, and as such should be able to contend with the Hell Lords.

They're "supposed" to be all powerful but their showings portray a completely different picture. Mephisto in particular has lost against Thor 2 times, the second time after Thor had battled his minions for hours. In a third instance Mephisto admitted he couldn't harm thor and that a battle between them would continue for all eternity. All of this was in Mephisto's own realm. He's also been stalemated by surfer in his realm among a couple of other things. The same thing applies to many of these hell lords, they have been stalemated and even bested by herald level beings, there are others i could reference but point being they are well below space gods like Galactus or the celestials even in their realms.

DP isn't getting past Odin though.

We saw how the Phoenix stacks up against mystics.

Where do these mystics stack up against Shou Lou, the Undying??

Probably stops at 3.

some interesting replies. far be it from me to be the PF backer, but damn, seems the force really gets no respect nowadays. imo a full unfettered force would at least reach the vishanti, and from there it would be tricky. i've always assumed the 616 PF is as powerful as the what if versions and one of those books could be interpretted to me to mean the PF destroyed a universe as its power continued to expand outward. jean also killed dormmy easily in one of those what ifs....and galactus iirc. not canon, obviously, but i see the pf being well above the likes of odin and dormammu and cyttorak. galactus fought evenly with agamotto, and i have no doubt phoenix could do at LEAST as well as he did, but likely a lot better since there was nothing to indicate that was an especially powerful galactus. remember this is a full powered phoenix....

anyway, where's gs when he's needed? lol

Originally posted by leonidas
some interesting replies. far be it from me to be the PF backer, but damn, seems the force really gets no respect nowadays. imo a full unfettered force would at least reach the vishanti, and from there it would be tricky. i've always assumed the 616 PF is as powerful as the what if versions and one of those books could be interpretted to me to mean the PF destroyed a universe as its power continued to expand outward. jean also killed dormmy easily in one of those what ifs....and galactus iirc. not canon, obviously, but i see the pf being well above the likes of odin and dormammu and cyttorak. galactus fought evenly with agamotto, and i have no doubt phoenix could do at LEAST as well as he did, but likely a lot better since there was nothing to indicate that was an especially powerful galactus. remember this is a full powered phoenix....

anyway, where's gs when he's needed? lol

Originally posted by leonidas
some interesting replies. far be it from me to be the PF backer, but damn, seems the force really gets no respect nowadays.

herbhappy

is the PF really that uber anymore?

Originally posted by t0sh
Dormmamu stalemated Eternity twice, i dont think anyone would put Dark Phoenix above Eternity, would you?

and has been beaten by strange countless times.... dormmy battled eternity once, 50yrs ago and did well. the other time he beat eternity was due strictly to a plot device. eternity is far above dormmamu on average. since this is unamped dormammu, without plot assistance, i'd def put the PF above the likes of him.

Originally posted by Galan007
GS over here...

herbhappy

yep, that's me. carrying the torch, righting phoenix injustices everywhere. 👆

anyway, you think the PF is skyfather level too? honestly, i don't see many on that list who could do to galactus--even a weak one, if he was weak--what RACHEL (a far weaker host) did to him....

Eternity has nothing to do with life. Eternity orginally before Infinity Wars was the physical embodiment of time, after Infinity Wars and his merger with Infinity is the physical representation of an entire cosmos / muliverse depending of what the writer writers.

Phoenix Force is the "prime force of life", which frankly is not but hyperbole, but that status itself doesnt put her even at Eternity level let alone above.

White Phoenix is but an avatar of Phoenix Force, one that is fully bonded to Phoenix Force yes, but there is nothing to say an avatar of the force would be just as powerful as the force itself, given the force has countless of other avatars running around even when Jean is bonded as white Phoenix.

That being said White Phoenix would likely win this encounter, not too sure about curbstomp, nor am i going to try and debate anyone out of thinking what they believe, but the reasoning you have provided are certainly not correct.

Originally posted by t0sh
Dormmamu stalemated Eternity twice, i dont think anyone would put Dark Phoenix above Eternity, would you?

Yes, I realize this a What If and hence not canon.

Originally posted by t0sh
Eternity has nothing to do with life. Eternity orginally before Infinity Wars was the physical embodiment of time, after Infinity Wars and his merger with Infinity is the physical representation of an entire cosmos / muliverse depending of what the writer writers.

Phoenix Force is the "prime force of life", which frankly is not but hyperbole, but that status itself doesnt put her even at Eternity level let alone above.

White Phoenix is but an avatar of Phoenix Force, one that is fully bonded to Phoenix Force yes, but there is nothing to say an avatar of the force would be just as powerful as the force itself, given the force has countless of other avatars running around even when Jean is bonded as white Phoenix.

That being said White Phoenix would likely win this encounter, not too sure about curbstomp, nor am i going to try and debate anyone out of thinking what they believe, but the reasoning you have provided are certainly not correct.

i....have no idea what you're talking about, nor do i have any idea why you felt the need to give me basic facts about eternity that everybody knows. 😐 i wasn't talking about eternity. i was talking about dormammu. and i didn't give you a specific reason for why i think phoenix wins the fight, so....yeah. phoenix's relative station compared to galactus HAS been shown and explored and that is all i commented on and ALLUDED to the idea that if she could beat galactus, she should fare well here.

so basically the reasoning i gave is perfectly fine. you simply had no idea what i was saying.

@zop--yeah, that's one of the issues i referenced. and the PF went on to (arguably) destroy the universe in another issue. you're right though, non-canon (i think that was the same issue she crushed the goblin queen....?) but still, imo, telling as relates to the power phoenix could potentially access at its height.