Phoenix vs Mystics

Originally posted by leonidas

@zop--yeah, that's one of the issues i referenced. and the PF went on to (arguably) destroy the universe in another issue. you're right though, non-canon (i think that was the same issue she crushed the goblin queen....?) but still, imo, telling as relates to the power phoenix could potentially access at its height.

There is also this. Rachel vs Shadow King. Shadow King at the time became the avatar of unnamed abstract forces. But it serves to show what the Phoenix Force can do or endow.

Originally posted by leonidas
@zop--yeah, that's one of the issues i referenced. and the PF went on to (arguably) destroy the universe in another issue. you're right though, non-canon (i think that was the same issue she crushed the goblin queen....?) but still, imo, telling as relates to the power phoenix could potentially access at its height.

Then you have it destroying multiple galaxies and the Watchers hinted that it would go on to destroy the entire universe in What if Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire :

Again, these don't help the PF because they all from alternate realities.

Phoenix is probably around Adult Franklin Richards level, considering the two created pocket Universes. They would have a difficult time fighting 4 Celestials. That said, Dormammu stomps both of them.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes, I realize this a What If and hence not canon.

Originally posted by zopzop
Again, these don't help the PF because they all from alternate realities.

As well as when Vulcan traveled there:
http://i.imgur.com/ELWK2bN.png

That is important because in Marvel, What-Ifs are officially recognized as alternate universes that exist within the larger canon multiverse. The Vulcan instance further helps confirm this, because a few of the other Watchers specifically mentioned consulting with Uatu during his rampage.

So I suppose an argument could be made that the feats you posted are canon to the PF itself on *some* level. Not saying I necessarily agree, but the logic holds some degree of merit, imo. The Phoenix is an odd bird in that regard(pun totally intended.) 😛

Originally posted by Galan007
True. But then again, the PF is a multiversal force -- it has avatars scattered across the multiverse. We actually saw some of its multiversal alternates when Psylocke and Rachel traveled to the WHR:
http://i.imgur.com/5tv5eMH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/a2dWNQQ.jpg

As well as when Vulcan traveled there:
http://i.imgur.com/ELWK2bN.png

That is important because in Marvel, What-Ifs are officially recognized as alternate universes that exist within the larger canon multiverse. The Vulcan instance further helps confirm this, because a few of the other Watchers specifically mentioned consulting with Uatu during his rampage.

So I suppose an argument could be made that the feats you posted are canon to the PF itself on *some* level. Not saying I necessarily agree, but the logic holds some degree of merit, imo. The Phoenix is an odd bird in that regard(pun totally intended.) 😛

i made a similar argument at one time regarding the multiversal nature of the PF--or maybe gs made it and i supported it? lol either way, i agree. i haven't posted any actual support for the PF in the thread. i was gonna wait a bit and see what others thought. i am surprised though at the lack of respect the force seems to be getting so maybe this weekend (to take a break from *&^%$#@ report cards) i'll post some stuff. problem is, MOST PF stuff has already been posted and argued add nauseum. the theory you brought up isn't one most know though, so thanks for chiming in with it. 👆

and you're right, it is hard, and notoriously difficult to gauge since its showings are all over the place. that's why i was specifically limiting it to its highest incarnations and feats.

Originally posted by leonidas
and you're right, it is hard, and notoriously difficult to gauge since its showings are all over the place. that's why i was specifically limiting it to its highest incarnations and feats.

a) Jean Grey Phoenix - Keep in mind right after the M'kraan Crystal incident, Jean subconsciously set up psychic circuit breakers to severely limit her power. So this covers the Magneto fight, the Proteus fight, etc.. They were in place all the way up to the point where she became Dark Phoenix. This was straight up stated on panel.

b) Rachel Grey - She PURPOSELY limited herself while using the power because she didn't want to lose control. This was also stated on panel.

Originally posted by zopzop
But in it's defense there's massive context behind a lot of those low showings.

a) Jean Grey Phoenix - Keep in mind right after the M'kraan Crystal incident, Jean subconsciously set up psychic circuit breakers to severely limit her power. So this covers the Magneto fight, the Proteus fight, etc.. They were in place all the way up to the point where she became Dark Phoenix. This was straight up stated on panel.

b) Rachel Grey - She PURPOSELY limited herself while using the power because she didn't want to lose control. This was also stated on panel.

lol

never figured you'd be on the PF side of things. course, you did say she'd lose to mephisto. but yeah, there is usually quite a bit of context behind MOST of her/its low showings. even rachel, limited as she was, had some great feats to her name.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

never figured you'd be on the PF side of things.

course, you did say she'd lose to mephisto.

PS did you see my scans from various What Ifs where the PF destroyed a universe?

Originally posted by zopzop

Just trying to be fair and put things in context.

I was assuming we were using the current PF, Galan corrected me.

PS did you see my scans from various What Ifs where the PF destroyed a universe? [/B]

yeah--way to steal my thunder. sneer

like we've both said repeatedly though, it IS what if. still, if you subscribe to galan's notion of the PF being a multiversal entity, in....any fashion, then it shouldn't matter that they are what if feats. i really do believe the PF is well above the likes of odin and the like. the vishanti are interesting and very hard to gauge themselves, so just how far the PF could get here really is unclear still in my mind.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah--way to steal my thunder. sneer

like we've both said repeatedly though, it IS what if. still, if you subscribe to galan's notion of the PF being a multiversal entity, in....any fashion, then it shouldn't matter that they are what if feats. i really do believe the PF is well above the likes of odin and the like. the vishanti are interesting and very hard to gauge themselves, so just how far the PF could get here really is unclear still in my mind.

IMHO, if the PF really is on par with the abstracts it clears (we saw what Death did during Thanos Imperative).

Originally posted by zopzop
True. One of the things in the PF's favor in 616 reality are the events that took place in Excalibur 25. Galactus tried wiping out the PF and all the stars in the universe died. Death, Roma, and the Watcher interceded on it's behalf and explained that it was a vital part of creation. Galactus then said the PF can 'obliterate an entire cosmos' :

That right there states it's AT LEAST universal (and vital at that).

IMHO, if the PF really is on par with the abstracts it clears (we saw what Death did during Thanos Imperative).

i wouldn't personally put it in the realm of the higher abstract beings. it couldn't take eternity for example. the argument could be made i guess though that any force capable of destroying a universe is greater than said universe.... getting pretty far down the road of speculation though. it really can't be denied that it has had some lesser moments. even being trapped in the earth as it was, being wounded multiple times.... def not abstract to me, though its ROLE may be the equal to the abstracts. function=/=power though.

i feel like you could be right though--it is possible it clears. it would be interesting to see if shuma could devour it or absorb it. it would at least make for a cool battle i think.

Originally posted by leonidas
i wouldn't personally put it in the realm of the higher abstract beings. it couldn't take eternity for example. the argument could be made i guess though that any force capable of destroying a universe is greater than said universe.... getting pretty far down the road of speculation though. it really can't be denied that it has had some lesser moments. even being trapped in the earth as it was, being wounded multiple times.... def not abstract to me, though its ROLE may be the equal to the abstracts. function=/=power though.

Wouldn't that imply it's at least abstract level?

^^ Nah.

I'll be back.

Originally posted by "Id"

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah I get what your saying. Here though, Death seemed to imply the PF is it's opposing force and an abstract/concept like Death :

"The sum and substance of all that lives".

Wouldn't that imply it's at least abstract level?

hmm, i think not tbh. the abstracts ARE their concept. ie--if eternity dies the universe dies with him. when death died, no one could die. i don't think we could say that if the PF was killed, all life would end. it may have been implied when galactus was going to drain rachel and the stars dimmed... still, that doesn't quite seem enough for me to elevate the pf to abstract levels.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i think not tbh. the abstracts ARE their concept. ie--if eternity dies the universe dies with him. when death died, no one could die. i don't think we could say that if the PF was killed, all life would end. it may have been implied when galactus was going to drain rachel and the stars dimmed... still, that doesn't quite seem enough for me to elevate the pf to abstract levels.

A) The stars didn't dim, they went out. They were extinguished.............across the universe.
B) Galactus straight up said the PF can "obliterate an entire cosmos".
C) Death confirmed this and stated it's part of the natural cycle.
D) The Watcher said without the PF, Galactus would doom the universe to 'ultimate extinction' it would be 'an infinite void wherein exists not the smallest potential for life".

^^ ... "Life" that needs "stars" to survive.

Galactus, like Death and Uatu, amongst a host of other "life" would go on just fine without that PF.

These beings are self-sufficient and do not need "stars" to exist.

Also, the Cosmic Abstract hierarchy has a pecking order:

LT
Abraxas
Eternity-Infinity-Oblivion-Death-Entropy
Chaos-Order
Love-Hate
PF

The first concept is Oblivion, which is the "nothing" in the beginning.
Then "space" (Infinity) is born with/in "time" (Eternity)
then this "space-time" is given structure via "chaos & order" and balance via Galactus,
the balance the In-betweener provides between chaos & order perpetuates the building blocks of life,
then life gives rise to the first emotions which are Love and Hate,
from this balance of love and hate "passion" (negative and positive) emerges in the form of the PF.

This all happens very quickly in successions one after the other.

I'll be back.

Originally posted by zopzop
But that's what was taking place.
From that ONE page in Excalibur 25 a LOT was going on :

A) The stars didn't dim, they went out. They were extinguished.............across the universe.
B) Galactus straight up said the PF can "obliterate an entire cosmos".
C) Death confirmed this and stated it's part of the natural cycle.
D) The Watcher said without the PF, Galactus would doom the universe to 'ultimate extinction' it would be 'an infinite void wherein exists not the smallest potential for life".

that seems to imply that life would die without stars though. maybe. potential life is interesting though, no doubt but i still see a difference between abstracts and the force. it's also been said to be rebirth and was said to be the sum total of all the psionic energy in the universe/multiverse as well...that's too many hats for me to definitively say it is an abstract embodiment of life itself. i see where you're getting the idea though. /shrug

@mrm: huh? abraxas came before eternity? where'd that come from? i thought he was born OF eternity.... 😕

Originally posted by leonidas

it's also been said to be the sum total of all the psionic energy in the universe/multiverse

Originally posted by leonidas

@mrm: huh? abraxas came before eternity?

The history of creation I also included does not include Abraxas, nor Entropy, which are by-products of Eternity/Infinity.

Originally posted by leonidas

i thought he was born OF eternity....

There needs to be something to destroy, before the "concept of destruction" can be imagined.

Same goes with Entropy, there has to be a "beginning" before there can be an "end."

Originally posted by Mr Master
... only in a wiki bio.

hmm? i know it's stated here:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/56904/1742169-what_is_the_phoenix_force_01.jpg

but i thought it came more directly from a comic somewhere to....

The 'pecking order" mini list I posted concerns power-levels.

ah. ok then. not sure i agree with it, but that doesn't matter. i thought you were speaking sequentially.

so then how far do you think the force gets? does it clear the field iyo?