Phoenix vs Mystics

Originally posted by operator616
It specifically states that the PF is born from the universe-creating energies. Clearly dissociating the PF from the creation energies.

1) It could affect other realities of the multiverse if that's what you mean. But it can't perform any full blown multiversal feats.
2) No, Eternity did.
3) Not as a creative force.
4) No.

PF predated the universe as much as Charles and the other X-Men did. Because they existed in that previous universe as well. They all died. I don't see what's so impressive about that.

you don't deem this a mutliversal feat?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/56904/1185539-excalibur050p17dl6.jpg

No matter how many times it's supported by "narrators" it doesn't equate to clear cut on panel illustrations, depicting the actual origins of the force. And this is what was supported in the handbooks, i don't see a handbook referring to the force as being the spark that ignites creation, do you?

what i see is a call upon handbooks when it is deemed convenient and a call to ignore them when it isn't. /shrug

Basically my evidence is:

On panel illustration (not just statement)
Handbook confirmation

Yours is:

Statements from various narrators (without actually depicting the scene to support their claims)

Are we clear on that?

lol

oh, we're clear. but i have very reliable narrator claims AND reed, on panel, using the term 'energy of creation' synonymously with the pf. no giant firebird at the start of every universe needed. it's also clear you are hand waving things you don't seem to care for for some odd reason. absence of proof isn't proof of absence. again.

You don't seem to realize that the phoenix force as a concept (not Jean as phoenix) wasn't introduced until '86.... This is the revelation/retcon that happened in the FF/Avengers story. Jean never "mutated" (so to speak) into phoenix, she was possessed by it, and that wasn't the real Jean anyway, it was a duplicate which believed itself to be Jean. And this is why your claims of X-Men's dissociation doesn't apply, because by that time (when the actual phoenix force was introduced) company wide crossovers were well under way.

i'm aware of what the retcon did. and like i said, neither had anything to do with the pf's place in cosmology. inferno came out what, 4-5 years later? and in the interim, how many crossovers explained the role of the pf that were NOT part of the x-family again? again, like i said, marvel as a whole did not start viewing the force in any significant way until YEARS later. why? because the x-titles were STILL widely held as separate from the other marvel titles. if there's a xover i'm forgetting that focused on phoenix i'm all ears. hell, it wasn't even until recently that captain america APOLOGIZED to mutants for not doing more to help their cause over the years! that was clear reference to the disconnect between x-titles and the rest of marvel.

Not necessarily. Manipulating the universe and Eternity are two different things. Shaper's power was able to re-create the universe from scratch but we know that cube beings are well below eternity. If, for instance, Eternity is forcefully fighting against a universe-buster, it's not a guaranteed win for the aforementioned universe-buster.

Possibly.
[/B]

i've heard it argued thanos usurped creation with a cosmic cube.....

anyway, we are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this. we see the proofs too differently. you think because it's NOT shown it can't be there despite being told by reliable characters it is. i'll take the word of the characters themselves. hopefully one of these days you'll get your on-panel proof.

One other quick question, how powerful is Alfie O'Meagan? I heard he was a universal level reality warper. Rachel brought him to his knees :

Originally posted by leonidas
you don't deem this a mutliversal feat?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/56904/1185539-excalibur050p17dl6.jpg

No because it needed an alignment to achieve this. The alignment basically opened the doors between universes to allow PF to perform that feat. Not unlike using a nexus to spread one's power through the multiverse.

Just clarifying this part since it seemed important. Agree to disagree on the rest.

Originally posted by zopzop
One other quick question, how powerful is Alfie O'Meagan? I heard he was a universal level reality warper. Rachel brought him to his knees :

Originally posted by operator616

Nth Man #16: Alfie gives John his own abilities with which he defeats M'Gubgub (a universal being) by collapsing M'Gubgub in on himself

http://i.imgur.com/ZGEsfq6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/p6qKkVv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MA9sFut.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o5uA7BG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QOgKjhx.jpg

Just so we know how powerful M'Gubgub is: He eats Galaxies for breakfast:

http://i.imgur.com/MXg9NGv.jpg

Nth Man #14: His full form blocks half of the galaxy:

http://i.imgur.com/8ezG6Af.jpg

A being who dwarfs planet and has seen the death of universeS, flees when he hears the name of M'Gubgub:

http://i.imgur.com/FFsvkEl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fOirCdt.jpg

^^ 👆 ...

Originally posted by leonidas

@the scan dump:

many of those early scans of universal ignition are old enough that the pf would never have been mentioned

and so are pointless.

I just posted every portrayal/depiction EVER of the Marvel Big Bang. (from the 70's to 2015)

... and NONE involved the PF, even indirectly, even an allusion of possibility was for naught.

In FACT .. I even posted the creation of the actual "SPARK" that ignites the Big Bang.

Which was created by the Alien Entity and Reed.

The Alien Entity exploded as the literal Big Bang.

-------------------------------------------

Sorry old friend, you'll have to post evidence that suggests the AE and Reed created the PF (spark)

and, you'll also have to prove that the Alien Entity was actually the PF in disguise. 😂

Originally posted by leonidas

if the energy of creation is synonymous with the pf, there is no need to have it mentioned--those knowledgeable in the material will know it is assumed to be there in some form if the cycle has progressed NATURALLY.

Nah.

The PF didn't do jack, and was no where around during any Big Bang event taking place in marvel comics.

Genesis (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Entropy (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Thanos (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Alien Entity (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
The LT (not the PF) initiated the creation event, aka Big Bang.
The Celestials (not the PF) created the universe, and then split it into a Multiverse.

Those are actual ON PANEL showings, ... illustrated action.

uhh, no one will ever convince me that was the PF doing that instead, off panel, lol.

Cool quote:

"who should I believe, you, or my own two eyes?"

😆 at this thread ... Since when are empty statements so valuable?

Originally posted by "Id"
(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
N/A
we dont know for certain jf its 1 Phoenix Entity for every universe or if its one entity that shares its power across the avatars.

(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
Yes. Its there in Operators scans in plain English.

(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
That is its role among others. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.

(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?
Yes. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.

Ultimatley what The Phoenix Force serves is cosmic consonance. And Cosmic Consonance, is a system to preserve the natural order of things. Cosmic Being and Space Gods play a part in this system.

2) NO. ... If you believe it did, what exactly did the PF do to participate in G's birth?

3) NO.

4) NO

Originally posted by Mr Master
Genesis (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Entropy (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Thanos (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
Alien Entity (not the PF) exploded as the Big Bang.
The LT (not the PF) initiated the creation event, aka Big Bang.
The Celestials (not the PF) created the universe, and then split it into a Multiverse.

Those are actual ON PANEL showings, ... illustrated action.

uhh, no one will ever convince me that was the PF doing that instead, off panel, lol.

Cool quote:

"who should I believe, you, or my own two eyes?"

you're not understanding a couple things: primarily, in showing me scans (some well before the pf was acknowledged in its cosmological role) that DON'T have the pf in them, all you're really doing, in essence, is trying to prove a negative: the pf has no role in creation because it ISN'T there. that's not the way it's meant to work, obviously. i can't say peter parker's teeth will shatter if he eats a popsickle then show a bunch of scans of him not eating a popsickle and say "see, look, no popsickles, so his teeth really would sahtter!!11!" lol

in a nutshell, this is your ABSENCE of evidence, vs my on panel evidence, in the form of statements from extremely knowledgeable characters (i don't like handbooks for reasons that should be obvious from this thread). reed flat out states the energy of creation IS the pf. combine that with the others' statements and that is support enough for me. it's just been said too many times, i get it's not enough for you or op. believe it or not i'm fine with that. lol i can't fully understand it, but i certainly don't give a sh!t that your opinions differ from mine.

secondly, all of the scans you posted ARE pointless, because as you've pointed out and reiterated in your post, NONE of them show a natural progression of universal death/creation/succession. in every scan, each universe was initiated by a power that was not natural, not part of the repeating cycle of universal death, followed by rebirth through creation/big bang. it has been repeatedly stated that the pf has a role in NATURAL progression. so if the AE initiated creation, why WOULD the pf be present? 😕

if genesis and entropy and thanos supplied the energy of creation, why WOULD the pf be needed? 😕 makes....no sense. it's needed when nothing else is present--ie, when a universe ends naturally and advances toward the next universe that will take its place. i honestly don't see what the stopping point is. it's not like i'm saying it contains all the energy in the universe, or it's greater than eternity. its fires get the ball rolling and creation does its thing and the pf is reborn as a universal manifestation of a force that certainly appears to be multiversal in the new universe after having died in the previous. it also plays a role in 'life' it would appear but that's really quite a vague connection. /shrug

anyway, these are certainly not outlandish claims, and it can be supported, though not in the way you'd like. marvel has f'd the pf so badly though, that i can't blame anyone for disagreeing. just so long as you know both viewpoints have merit and neither should be dismissed out of hand.

Originally posted by leonidas

in a nutshell, this is your ABSENCE of evidence, vs my on panel evidence,
in the form of statements from extremely knowledgeable characters

Originally posted by leonidas

reed flat out states the energy of creation IS the pf.

but i certainly don't give a sh!t that your opinions differ from mine.

All that matters if evidence.

Reed? ... That's actually Mark Waid (writer) speaking out of his ass via Reed. (January 2005)

Here's Stan Lee (writer) below, speaking truth via Reed,
where an illustrated portrayal cements his factual truth. (November 2005)

----------------------------------------------------------------

You must've missed this, or overlooked it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring! ... and Reed Richards is there seeing it happen.

The real "SPARK" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

The Alien Entity/Reed created the "Spark" that ignites the Fires/Engines of Creation: (on panel) occurring!

And indeed, the Alien Entity even manipulated the "Spark" into motion: (on panel) occurring!

The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

Let's not ever bring up Reed with Waid's ganja influenced delusions. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas

NONE of them show a natural progression of universal death/creation/succession.

in every scan, each universe was initiated by a power that was not natural,
not part of the repeating cycle of universal death,
followed by rebirth through creation/big bang.

Leo, you gotta know what you're debating about if you wish to continue this.

The Entropy story line deals with exactly that. The "repeating cycle" ... the natural death and rebirth of creation.

"it is the cycle" ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
😂 .. I still luvs ya though.

I'm not posting opinions. You may not give a sht, but that's inconsequential.

All that matters if evidence.

Reed? ... That's actually Mark Waid (writer) speaking out of his ass via Reed. (January 2005)

Here's Stan Lee (writer) below, speaking truth via Reed,
where an illustrated portrayal cements his factual truth. (November 2005)

----------------------------------------------------------------

You must've missed this, or overlooked it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring! ... and [b]Reed Richards is there seeing it happen.

The real "SPARK" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

The Alien Entity/Reed created the "Spark" that ignites the Fires/Engines of Creation: (on panel) occurring!

And indeed, the Alien Entity even manipulated the "Spark" into motion: (on panel) occurring!

The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

Let's not ever bring up Reed with Waid's ganja influenced delusions. 👆[/b]

there you go again with 'evidence'. seriously? absence of proof.....

anyway, wth, are we looking at the same scans above? 😑

the AE says, specifically, the light came from "within him". it's...literally right there, on the first page. if the light came from within him, then.....how would it have come from anywhere else? if this being can create a universe on his own, why the %$#@ would he need the pf to start anything? and having an alien entity create a big bang is natural? i just don't know what to say tbh.

and in any event, where's entropy exactly in that set of scans...? or any of the other scans if as you say below those cm scans show a true natural progression?

Leo, you gotta know what you're debating about if you wish to continue this.

The Entropy story line deals with exactly that. The "repeating cycle" ... the natural death and rebirth of creation.

"it is the cycle" ... [/B]

😐

https://foxhugh.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/marvel-abstract-entities-entropy-captain-marvel-v4-5-2003-page-23.jpg?w=500&h=766

"the universe will end eventually, but i grow tired of eventually."

how in the hell is that any sort of "natural progression"?? if you look up the definition for the OPPOSITE of natural, you'd find THAT. it seems you want everyone to think what exactly? that the natural progression for all universes is for entropy to get all bent because his dad rejected him, kill eternity then....evolve into the next eternity and start his own big bang?? weird too how it isn't mentioned in any eternity bio that he was killed by entropy and then replaced--or in any book ever that i can recall. maybe because that would seem to be a paradox of the highest order since eternity has been stated a million times to have been born IN the big bang (where entropy was also born....) as opposed to having had existed before it and starting it? 😐

entropy says it himself--the universe WILL end, NATURALLY. it's been said in many comics the universe will end in heat death, everything will die and the next will begin. THAT is natural. entropy teaming up with a cosmic hero to kill eternity then take his place? not so natural. imho.

phoenix vulcan seemed to have no limit, said to consume all reality if he didnt stop.

Originally posted by Mordum
phoenix vulcan seemed to have no limit, said to consume all reality if he didnt stop.

All I know is, Leo doesn't know how to fricking spell 'popsicles', and it makes me furious.

😂

😮

hey, wait, that's the canadian spelling.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All I know is, Leo doesn't know how to fricking spell 'popsicles', and it makes me furious.

btw you've been uncharacteristically quiet over there. no thoughts on the pf? not that i blame you for staying away from this biohazard.

and and check out the shiny new version of my sig courtesy of galan. (insert ooooos and ahhhhhs)

Your sig sucks.

Ooh, aah.

durimshot

Truth be told, I don't have a care for the guys in this thread....nor on the characters named 😉

Nah. Not enough of an expert. All I've seen in recent times of the Phoenix vs mystics is its performance against the Dragon that IF defeated...

Originally posted by Mr Master
=========================================

The Universe's [b]Big Bang birth and then the Multiverse's birth in Pak's vision:

=========================================

Starlin's portrayal of the Universe's birth how it Big Bangs into being:

[/B]

i somehow missed commenting on this: so both of these satisfy your criteria on on panel depiction, clearly. does that mean you actually attribute the creation of the multiverse to the celestials? it's also mentioned in a couple bios, so does that make it the one true multiversal origin then?

of course, those same bios say no one knows HOW the 616 started, so who the f*** knows, maybe they DID start things off. until the question is answered definitively, seems ridiculous to dismiss any reasonable explanations out of hand.

I like how the Celestials made the multiverse... By socking space. 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Truth be told, I don't have a care for the guys in this thread....nor on the characters named 😉

Nah. Not enough of an expert. All I've seen in recent times of the Phoenix vs mystics is its performance against the Dragon that IF defeated...

went back to look at that. not much there. the dragon was young but it's breath hurt a weaker form of cyclops a bit. hope copied it and hurt him a bit with it but no real damage. cyke handled the dragon pretty easily but it was very young. he'd def have killed it with another hit i think but didn't.

there was the bit about a legend saying the ancient, full grown dragon beat the phoenix according to a kun lun legend, but......that's pretty meaningless. not really much to learn from the encounter. the whole avx phoenix was difficult to gauge anyway, and not really the highest version of the pf we've seen.