Originally posted by Galan007
It's from Fantastic Four - Universal Guide (2007).
Thanks, Galan. I think that bio it's from Fantastic Four - Ultimate Guide cause is pretty similar:
By the way, the Ultimate Nullifier restoring the universe or the multiverse in the Abraxas arc?
In 2005 universes are mentioned:
And in 2006 the handbook says universe:
Originally posted by operator616The Phoenix could kamikaze/detonate itself to unleash the big bang, and then later remake itself from those same energies... "Rise from the ashes", if you will. Similar to what we saw when Lucifer stabbed/detonated Michael, and then remade him from the creation-energy he just unleashed.
The editor claimed that PF is one of the creative forces of the multiverse, yet later on it is born from the big bang. If it was indeed a creative force it should be the one who initiates the big bang not be born from it.How is this not contradictory?
Not saying I agree or disagree, but it certainly could happen, and would not facilitate a contradiction.
Originally posted by backupThe Ultimate and Universal Guides have the exact same entry for Abraxas -- literally word for word. 👆
Thanks, Galan. I think that bio it's from Fantastic Four - Ultimate Guide cause is pretty similar:
Originally posted by Galan007
The Phoenix could kamikaze/detonate itself to unleash the big bang, and then later remake itself from those same energies... "Rise from the ashes", if you will. Similar to what we saw when Lucifer stabbed/detonated Michael, and then remade him from the creation-energy he just unleashed.Not saying I agree or disagree, but it certainly could happen, and would not facilitate a contradiction.
It's a possibility but id think the details you're describing would have been mentioned if that was actually the case. Either way, there are other contradictions that i mentioned.
Originally posted by operator616
The editor claimed that PF is one of the creative forces of the multiverse, yet later on it is born from the big bang. If it was indeed a creative force it should be the one who initiates the big bang not be born from it.How is this not contradictory?
Well yes. Either way, do you actually believe that the PF = big bang? But wait.
You're saying that the PF is the psionic energy of the multiverse (your own scan)
yet its also the big bang (according to Reed),
yet its also born from the big bang (according to Excalibur),
yet it is also the spark that initiates the big bang (according to various others). 😂
And all of this is not contradictory to you? Seriously?
i'm sure you've seen the scan already, probably a number of times (maybe it's the one you're referencing). the reason i show it is because i think it clarifies some of the contradictions you're citing. in the scene reed is conflating the 'energies of creation' (the big bang) with the phoenix force. if that's true (and it has been stated many times over by many characters) i don't see any reason why we would need to see a fire bird at all--anymore than we would need to see eternity's body taking shape. the energy responsible for starting things off IS the phoenix energy--or at least it is initially since it is said repeatedly to be the 'spark' that sets things in motion.
i always thought that bit about the pf being born WITH the universe was pretty clear too. it existed in the prior universe, it's rebirth is the spark that gets creation going then it takes shape and grows as the universe does, since it is also an embodiment of life.
😂
that sounds convoluted even to me, but it makes sense, and takes into account most of the current info about the force. when a universe dies and a new bog bang occurs it is again the force that gets the ball rolling. cyclical, again, as has been stated numerous times in numerous texts.
oh, and the bit about the psionic energy? i grant THAT bit is confusing. i could try and force fit it, but it really never should have been described as such.
That story about the elder gods is actually pretty consistent and has been mentioned in at least three titles that i recall of (Thor, Silver Surfer, Dr Strange).The pantheon creation stories were mostly present in the early comics only (up until the 80s), after that they were forgotten and some were even retconned to be false memories implanted by Odin about the creation myths. Although admittedly they were still referenced later on in the thor mythos but they were just limited to that, and not mentioned or even hinted in other titles.
sure, but it is still contradictory. was it in ragnarok where the nine worlds origin was again reiterated? the origin of the nine worlds according to the norse gods has nothing to do with the big bang or eternity. that might seem reasonable until we realize midgard is part of the nine worlds and earth is part of midgard--in fact our whole universe IS midgard. now THAT is a contradiction....
We've seen Eternity depicted several times with the creation of the universe, we've never seen PF even once, see the difference? Also, Eternity is the universe so it isn't contradictory when we don't see Eternity in humanoid form on panel when a creation story is depicted. Same thing cannot be said of the PF because it's a goddamn fire bird.
and reed has stated it is simply the energy of creation. as i said, i don't think a bird is required.
Because back in the day there was only one phoenix force across the multiverse. So the PF can possess only one host in the multiverse and that host was Rachel at the time. And Rachel herself had no alternate versions across the multiverse (this has been confirmed time and time again).
k, but that was back in the day. the pf has been subject to retcons like everything else in marvel. imo it's still easy to make a case that the pf is a multiversal force, with avatars in different universes. maybe it didn't make sense for there to be one rachel before. doesn't matter though since that isn't the case anymore.
Why do you keep talking about x-men being dissociated from the rest of Marvel? This applies to every title in the early comics era, both DC and Marvel, they were much more self-contained than comics nowadays obviously. And im not sure how that is relevant anyway given that the Phoenix force concept wasn't introduced until the mid 80s, a time when crossovers were ubiquitous. So there shouldn't be an excuse why PF isn't depicted because of X-Men's dissociation from rest of the titles.
we'll disagree completely there i'm afraid. at the time the force was first introduced, the whole claremont era in fact, the x-men and their accompanying titles, were seen as almost separate entities from the other marvel titles. outside of the x-men, the force was almost never brought up, certainly not in the more cosmic titles (dr strange, ss, ff, avengers). because of that, the role of the pf was never included in any of the cosmological arcs that took place in those titles. that is no longer the case and so the force's role has become better defined. at least to my mind.
My mind isn't made up at all and i could say the same thing about you. If there wasn't so much contradiction and hyperbole surrounding the PF i wouldn't be dismissing her words. But fair enough on the rest part. [/B]
well, i'm not a phoenix hater if that's what you mean, but i'm hardly a fanboy of it either. i think what i've said is at least reasonable. i'm pretty set in my ways regarding the role of the force, what it does, (there have been just too many reliable narrators/characters describing its nature for me to question it) but its power level is still something i'm not completely comfortable finalizing. i legitimately don't know if the force could clear this. i think there is some reason to think so, but reasons to think otherwise as well. the pf is one of those cases where i don't think role and power necessarily match up.
what do you think the best single feat of the pf is?
-------------------------------------
The PF died with everything else, and was then Re-Born in the Big Bang, just like everything else.
-------------------------------------
That's what the PF remembers, being born from the Big Bang:
[img=http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/18594421_Phoenix_being_born.jpg]
-------------------------------------
Cool, it fits perfectly with what her official handbook bio states.
It's the same shit every other Abstract/Concept remembers/knows ... and ... experiences likewise:
=========================================
The recycling of Eternity-Infinity years prior ... oh yea, Big Bang style!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
... more Big Bangs artistically illustrated and the PF again had nothing to do with it,
not even indirectly, heck, not even alluded as even remotely responsible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Big Bang via Sise-Neg aka Genesis:
=========================================
The TRUE self perpetuating recycling of All That Is (Eternity-Infinity) ... On Panel, Big Bang occurring:
=========================================
=========================================
Thanos ... let loose the Big Bang:
=========================================
The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring!
The real "SPARK" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!
The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!
......................................................................................
The Alien Entity/Reed created the "Spark" that ignites the Fires/Engines of Creation:
(literally)
......................................................................................
And indeed, the Alien Entity even manipulated the "Spark" into motion:
"Let there be Light ... let the Universe itself ... become"
......................................................................................
The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)
Originally posted by Mr Master
-------------------------------------The PF died with everything else, and was then Re-Born in the Big Bang, just like everything else.
-------------------------------------
That's what the PF remembers, being born from the Big Bang:
[img=http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/18594421_Phoenix_being_born.jpg]
-------------------------------------
Cool, it fits perfectly with what her official handbook bio states.
It's the same shit every other Abstract/Concept remembers/knows ... and ... [b]experiences likewise
:
This is no longer true.
We now know that the Phoenix Force predated 616 reality, as it is shown and explained that it battle the cosmic enity Le Bette Noir since the previous reality.
Originally posted by "Id"👆
We now know that the Phoenix Force predated 616 reality, as it is shown and explained that it battle the cosmic enity Le Bette Noir since the previous reality.
Originally posted by leonidas
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/97919/2042378-1780650_1330036_scan5tv0_super_super.jpgi'm sure you've seen the scan already, probably a number of times (maybe it's the one you're referencing). the reason i show it is because i think it clarifies some of the contradictions you're citing. in the scene reed is conflating the 'energies of creation' (the big bang) with the phoenix force. if that's true (and it has been stated many times over by many characters) i don't see any reason why we would need to see a fire bird at all--anymore than we would need to see eternity's body taking shape. the energy responsible for starting things off IS the phoenix energy--or at least it is initially since it is said repeatedly to be the 'spark' that sets things in motion.
i always thought that bit about the pf being born WITH the universe was pretty clear too. it existed in the prior universe, it's rebirth is the spark that gets creation going then it takes shape and grows as the universe does, since it is also an embodiment of life.
😂
that sounds convoluted even to me, but it makes sense, and takes into account most of the current info about the force. when a universe dies and a new bog bang occurs it is again the force that gets the ball rolling. cyclical, again, as has been stated numerous times in numerous texts.
oh, and the bit about the psionic energy? i grant THAT bit is confusing. i could try and force fit it, but it really never should have been described as such.
You're basically summing up individual depictions together to fit it in with your view. What you're missing here is that these individual depictions don't seem to take into account each other. For example, the Excalibur scene where the PF is born from the big bang doesn't mention anything about the PF being a creative force, just that it is born from creation.
Anyway, this is an illustration of the full origins of the PF:
Originally posted by operator616
phoenix died along with everyone else in the universe (eternity included) and galen is the only survivor of the previous universe:http://i.imgur.com/4bQ7sVg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QgDUHEJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9a69UrS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XlnfhhA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QGV4pQQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jmk7Rc5.jpgsame story was retold in several other issues, however this one puts a bit emphasis on the phoenix unlike others.
2005 handbook, confirms that the phoenix died during the big bang and was reborn from it:
http://i.imgur.com/ZrsLu3P.jpg?1
2010 handbook, confirms this as well:
^^^
Originally posted by leonidas
sure, but it is still contradictory. was it in ragnarok where the nine worlds origin was again reiterated? the origin of the nine worlds according to the norse gods has nothing to do with the big bang or eternity. that might seem reasonable until we realize midgard is part of the nine worlds and earth is part of midgard--in fact our whole universe IS midgard. now THAT is a contradiction....
Yes Ragnarok. And Midgard is a synonym for Earth. But that aside, you're basically saying that Asgard's cosmology is contradictory, which means we can't be sure about the nature of it just like we can't be sure about the nature of the PF. Which just goes further to prove my point.
Originally posted by leonidas
we'll disagree completely there i'm afraid. at the time the force was first introduced, the whole claremont era in fact, the x-men and their accompanying titles, were seen as almost separate entities from the other marvel titles. outside of the x-men, the force was almost never brought up, certainly not in the more cosmic titles (dr strange, ss, ff, avengers). because of that, the role of the pf was never included in any of the cosmological arcs that took place in those titles. that is no longer the case and so the force's role has become better defined. at least to my mind.
?
The Phoenix force concept was introduced in the very titles that you're referencing; the major Jean Grey/Phoenix retcon happened in an Avengers/FF story.
Not to mention that even before Excalibur started, the mutant community already had two big crossovers under their belt, and Excalibur was involved in one in the very beginning of their series (Inferno).
Originally posted by leonidas
well, i'm not a phoenix hater if that's what you mean, but i'm hardly a fanboy of it either. i think what i've said is at least reasonable. i'm pretty set in my ways regarding the role of the force, what it does, (there have been just too many reliable narrators/characters describing its nature for me to question it) but its power level is still something i'm not completely comfortable finalizing. i legitimately don't know if the force could clear this. i think there is some reason to think so, but reasons to think otherwise as well. the pf is one of those cases where i don't think role and power necessarily match up.what do you think the best single feat of the pf is?
I agree that PF's role and power don't match up at all.
In Here Comes Tomorrow Jean was seemingly able to manipulate an entire universe, but that was done in the white hot room which is a multiversal nexus,so just how impressive it was is questionable to me.
Originally posted by zopzop
Quick question, are the events in X-Men : The End canon? Cassandra Nova was about to do some serious damage with the PF in that mini series.
Originally posted by zopzop
Just wanted to add these scans from Uncanny X-Men 473. Uatu talking to the X-Men about the PF and First Fallen :
Couple of things worth mentioning :
a) He's scared of the First Fallen
b) The Watcher claims the PF is the fire that sparks creation and the fire that consumes it
Depends on what you mean canon. Canon to 616? Of course not, but the events did happen in an alternate reality so it is canon to "the multiverse" if you will.
We already knew that and it was mentioned several times, one of which in the X-Men The end (v3) which you referenced. Doesn't matter since it is hyperbole.
Originally posted by "Id"
This is no longer true.We now know that the Phoenix Force predated 616 reality, as it is shown and explained that it battle the cosmic enity Le Bette Noir since the previous reality.
Its very true. the PF of 616 is the reborn version just like everyone else. It died when the previous reality imploded and was reborn, the "reborn" Phoenix is the one which resumed its battle with the bete noir entity. This was never stated in the story but clarified in a recent handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/JvbYdtf.jpg?1
My post above there's an on panel depiction for the PF origins of the previous reality, so it adds up.
@the scan dump: many of those early scans of universal ignition are old enough that the pf would never have been mentioned and so are pointless. as for the rest--already addressed in my post to op. if the energy of creation is synonymous with the pf, there is no need to have it mentioned--those knowledgeable in the material will know it is assumed to be there in some form if the cycle has progressed NATURALLY. no less than a half dozen very reliable narrators have made the issue clear in my mind, and the narrators comments have been corroborated in bio entries.
iow: absence of proof is NOT proof of absence. 👆
Originally posted by operator616
You're basically summing up individual depictions together to fit it in with your view. What you're missing here is that these individual depictions don't seem to take into account each other. For example, the Excalibur scene where the PF is born from the big bang doesn't mention anything about the PF being a creative force, just that it is born from creation.Anyway, this is an illustration of the full origins of the PF:
i won't deny i'm picking and choosing a bit. but it's necessary with the force, and i'm picking and choosing only the most common theme. i'll explain.
using your origin story, the pf is multiversal (or at least multi-universal....). it dies, and is reborn (from the ashes....) from an egg then dies again when a universe dies only to be reborn again. could be when the egg hatches the energy released is the energy of creation. isn't that exactly what is most commonly described of the force? a spark, the egg, the energy of creation--i think you're overlooking the big and obvious picture because you're looking at the details: the pf plays a clear role in the moment of creation. egg, spark, energy. clearly different writers interpret that role differently, but.....that's comics. i guess i don't really differentiate those things like you do. i don't find them contradictory because they all amount to the same thing--a role in the beginning of the universe. maybe the role isn't as defined as you'd like, but not sure how you can argue that is DOESN'T play a part. if that's what you're doing. /shrug
your scans and bio posts also obviously support the idea that the pf DOES play a role in galactus's origin and supports the idea that pf predated the universe, as the bete noir scans reaffirm.
tbh, i've lost your train of argument. maybe you can clarify?
(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?
i won't be mad if you don't wanna answer 😂 i am legitimately curious though (others can feel free to answer as well). obviously my answer is yes to each, which make the pf an essential and powerful force. how powerful is it within a universe? still not 100% sure. i'm still not sure i'd refer to it as an abstract entity either, but can see why it might be considered as such.
Yes Ragnarok. And Midgard is a synonym for Earth. But that aside, you're basically saying that Asgard's cosmology is contradictory, which means we can't be sure about the nature of it just like we can't be sure about the nature of the PF. Which just goes further to prove my point.
lol it could go towards my point as well. if you consider the ragnarok origin as a possible way of looking at things, that means the role of the pf is also a viable option and shouldn't be ruled out by anyone. it simply has the benefit of having been described more times, by more knowledgeable narrators and has the added benefit of being supported in handbooks.
?The Phoenix force concept was introduced in the very titles that you're referencing; the major Jean Grey/Phoenix retcon happened in an Avengers/FF story.
Not to mention that even before Excalibur started, the mutant community already had two big crossovers under their belt, and Excalibur was involved in one in the very beginning of their series (Inferno).
neither of the arcs you've mentioned defined the pf in a cosmological sense though. if they did, i don't recall it. and certainly the inferno arc only touched the other titles peripherally. i'm not sure how you can argue the point tbh. the pf appeared first in what? 76? inferno was....89/90? the avengers stuff wasn't long before that. there was like....6 years of material under claremont that was almost completely insulated (with some rare exceptions) from the rest of marvel, where he could not have cared less about how other titles defined the beginning of the universe in marvel.
when did the first 'cosmic' crossover with other titles happen that involved the pf as an integral part? the first i recall is the titans/x-men xover but that isn't even canon so who cares? it hasn't been until MUCH more recently that marvel as a whole started using the pf in a way that supports the the x-men's definition of what the pf was supposed to represent. if you disagree, i'd love to see some specific material that contradicts this view. i mean claremont was removed from the x-titles specifically BECAUSE he didn't like having to play nice with other writers and because he didn't give a rat's a$$ about continuity. he did his own thing, which of course led directly to so many of the problems that later came about when trying to fit the pf INTO more commonly accepted versions of marvel's cosmology. can't really blame the pf for that...
I agree that PF's role and power don't match up at all.In Here Comes Tomorrow Jean was seemingly able to manipulate an entire universe, but that was done in the white hot room which is a multiversal nexus,so just how impressive it was is questionable to me. [/B]
that's fair enough. the feat is questionable to me as well, but while i'm not sure just how much power it required (did it mean she is capable of toying with eternity like a plaything within the whr?) i do know it's a damn impressive feat, and shouldn't be dismissed or downplayed.
this thread was predicated on the highest levels of power displayed by all involved. liked all demons are in their realms we can maybe that the scene in the whr IS the highest level we've seen the pf operate at. with that in mind, i'd say she clears this.
like all demons are in their realms we can maybe TAKE FOR GRANTED that the scene in the whr IS the highest level we've seen the pf operate at. with that in mind, i'd say she clears this.
ugh. my typing sucks. anyway fixed for clarification.
also a further point to clarify: i get why you mentioned the inferno and avengers arc in reference to the retcon, but what i was trying to get at is an arc with....first attempted to blend the pf's role in cosmology as defined in the x-books, with the mainstream notion of cosmology. afaik that merging of ideas didn't happen until well after those arcs took place.
the pf is, historically, a mess, no doubt, but over the last bunch of years i think marvel has made an effort (much more of an effort than in the past at least) to consolidate it and has tried to keep its role more consistent. imo at least.
@operator
I can't even count the number of threads you've posted in where you seem gauge a character's power primarily by statements made about him/her(I can post SEVERAL of these threads/examples if you'd like..?) I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but why, in this thread, are you all of the sudden hand-waving away most of the statements made about the PF as 'hyperbole' or whathaveyou? Just seems a bit... Inconsistent to me.
Originally posted by leonidasi won't deny i'm picking and choosing a bit. but it's necessary with the force, and i'm picking and choosing only the most common theme. i'll explain.
using your origin story, the pf is multiversal (or at least multi-universal....). it dies, and is reborn (from the ashes....) from an egg then dies again when a universe dies only to be reborn again. could be when the egg hatches the energy released is the energy of creation. isn't that exactly what is most commonly described of the force? a spark, the egg, the energy of creation--i think you're overlooking the big and obvious picture because you're looking at the details: the pf plays a clear role in the moment of creation. egg, spark, energy. clearly different writers interpret that role differently, but.....that's comics. i guess i don't really differentiate those things like you do. i don't find them contradictory because they all amount to the same thing--a role in the beginning of the universe. maybe the role isn't as defined as you'd like, but not sure how you can argue that is DOESN'T play a part. if that's what you're doing. /shrug
your scans and bio posts also obviously support the idea that the pf DOES play a role in galactus's origin and supports the idea that pf predated the universe, as the bete noir scans reaffirm.
tbh, i've lost your train of argument. maybe you can clarify?
(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?i won't be mad if you don't wanna answer 😂 i am legitimately curious though (others can feel free to answer as well). obviously my answer is yes to each, which make the pf an essential and powerful force. how powerful is it within a universe? still not 100% sure. i'm still not sure i'd refer to it as an abstract entity either, but can see why it might be considered as such.
It specifically states that the PF is born from the universe-creating energies. Clearly dissociating the PF from the creation energies.
1) It could affect other realities of the multiverse if that's what you mean. But it can't perform any full blown multiversal feats.
2) No, Eternity did.
3) Not as a creative force.
4) No.
PF predated the universe as much as Charles and the other X-Men did. Because they existed in that previous universe as well. They all died. I don't see what's so impressive about that.
Originally posted by leonidas
lol it could go towards my point as well. if you consider the ragnarok origin as a possible way of looking at things, that means the role of the pf is also a viable option and shouldn't be ruled out by anyone. it simply has the benefit of having been described more times, by more knowledgeable narrators and has the added benefit of being supported in handbooks.
No matter how many times it's supported by "narrators" it doesn't equate to clear cut on panel illustrations, depicting the actual origins of the force. And this is what was supported in the handbooks, i don't see a handbook referring to the force as being the spark that ignites creation, do you?
Basically my evidence is:
On panel illustration (not just statement)
Handbook confirmation
Yours is:
Statements from various narrators (without actually depicting the scene to support their claims)
Are we clear on that?
Originally posted by leonidas
neither of the arcs you've mentioned defined the pf in a cosmological sense though. if they did, i don't recall it. and certainly the inferno arc only touched the other titles peripherally. i'm not sure how you can argue the point tbh. the pf appeared first in what? 76? inferno was....89/90? the avengers stuff wasn't long before that. there was like....6 years of material under claremont that was almost completely insulated (with some rare exceptions) from the rest of marvel, where he could not have cared less about how other titles defined the beginning of the universe in marvel.when did the first 'cosmic' crossover with other titles happen that involved the pf as an integral part? the first i recall is the titans/x-men xover but that isn't even canon so who cares? it hasn't been until MUCH more recently that marvel as a whole started using the pf in a way that supports the the x-men's definition of what the pf was supposed to represent. if you disagree, i'd love to see some specific material that contradicts this view. i mean claremont was removed from the x-titles specifically BECAUSE he didn't like having to play nice with other writers and because he didn't give a rat's a$$ about continuity. he did his own thing, which of course led directly to so many of the problems that later came about when trying to fit the pf INTO more commonly accepted versions of marvel's cosmology. can't really blame the pf for that...
You don't seem to realize that the phoenix force as a concept (not Jean as phoenix) wasn't introduced until '86.... This is the revelation/retcon that happened in the FF/Avengers story. Jean never "mutated" (so to speak) into phoenix, she was possessed by it, and that wasn't the real Jean anyway, it was a duplicate which believed itself to be Jean. And this is why your claims of X-Men's dissociation doesn't apply, because by that time (when the actual phoenix force was introduced) company wide crossovers were well under way.
Originally posted by leonidas
that's fair enough. the feat is questionable to me as well, but while i'm not sure just how much power it required (did it mean she is capable of toying with eternity like a plaything within the whr?) i do know it's a damn impressive feat, and shouldn't be dismissed or downplayed.this thread was predicated on the highest levels of power displayed by all involved. liked all demons are in their realms we can maybe that the scene in the whr IS the highest level we've seen the pf operate at. with that in mind, i'd say she clears this.
Not necessarily. Manipulating the universe and Eternity are two different things. Shaper's power was able to re-create the universe from scratch but we know that cube beings are well below eternity. If, for instance, Eternity is forcefully fighting against a universe-buster, it's not a guaranteed win for the aforementioned universe-buster.
Possibly.
Originally posted by leonidas
also a further point to clarify: i get why you mentioned the inferno and avengers arc in reference to the retcon, but what i was trying to get at is an arc with....first attempted to blend the pf's role in cosmology as defined in the x-books, with the mainstream notion of cosmology. afaik that merging of ideas didn't happen until well after those arcs took place.the pf is, historically, a mess, no doubt, but over the last bunch of years i think marvel has made an effort (much more of an effort than in the past at least) to consolidate it and has tried to keep its role more consistent. imo at least.
First time that happened was around the same time Claremont's Excalibur was taking place, so....
Originally posted by Galan007
@operatorI can't even count the number of threads you've posted in where you seem gauge a character's power primarily by statements made about him/her(I can post SEVERAL of these threads/examples if you'd like..?) I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but why, in this thread, are you all of the sudden hand-waving away most of the statements made about the PF as 'hyperbole' or whathaveyou? Just seems a bit... Inconsistent to me.
Because there are on panel depictions contradicting those statements, unlike in the other cases where i consider statements genuine.
(1) do you believe the pf is a multiversal entity?
N/A
we dont know for certain jf its 1 Phoenix Entity for every universe or if its one entity that shares its power across the avatars.
(2) do you believe the pf did play a role in galactus's salvation?
Yes. Its there in Operators scans in plain English.
(3) in the same vein, do you think the pf exists perpetually in the rise and fall of universe when they rise and fall naturally?
That is its role among others. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.
(4) do you believe the pf does have a role in the ignition of a universe, even if said role isn't as defined as you'd like?
Yes. Although it seems that this responsibility is shared with other entities.
Ultimatley what The Phoenix Force serves is cosmic consonance. And Cosmic Consonance, is a system to preserve the natural order of things. Cosmic Being and Space Gods play a part in this system.
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