Originally posted by quanchi112
I do the same for all. I can't stand Windu but don't excuse Palpatine's loss. Windu is one of the most boring Jedi or Sith IMO yet I give him the due he deserves. I am the same with all Star Wars characters.
So why is Maul's getting blindsided by Obi Wan in TPM when he was literally facing him with the high ground OK, but Palpatine being blindsided from behind by Vader while being distracted torturing someone is not?
Originally posted by The EllimistWell they both were overconfident so that's exactly the same. Both were guilty of this. The difference is Maul survived and Palpatine thus far hasn't (if Disney decides to change this). Doubtful but you never know. Most hold Palpatine to a higher standard since he's more powerful, wiser, etc. than Maul.
So why is Maul's getting blindsided by Obi Wan in TPM when he was literally facing him with the high ground OK, but Palpatine being blindsided from behind by Vader while being distracted torturing someone is not?
Originally posted by quanchi112
The difference is Maul survived and Palpatine thus far hasn't
What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about who would win in a fight; that Maul managed to survive by some fluke isn't relevant to these vs. debates.
Likewise, had Maul fallen into the Death Star II's reactor shaft, he certainly would not have lived, particularly given that the station blows up a few minutes after.
Originally posted by The EllimistWell since I view both as the same errors to varying degrees whats the issue ?
What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about who would win in a fight; that Maul managed to survive by some fluke isn't relevant to these vs. debates.Likewise, had Maul fallen into the Death Star II's reactor shaft, he certainly would not have lived, particularly given that the station blows up a few minutes after.
Originally posted by McP
Not at all. In Legends (which were a canon in the past) we also could see some awesome things, like Mace's TK in CW > everything that Sidious ever done with TK.
It's very different. Legends was all over the place with it's "Canon." That's why it was given different "levels" of Canon, and why Disney just had to throw it out.
On the contrary with Disney Canon, everything is on the same level of Canon.
Originally posted by McP
There are some exaggerated feats, depends of the source.
Unless we're told otherwise, the new Canon is Canon. I've seen nothing so far to suggest every medium shows a different level of use of Force powers. I've only seen a different level of use from different Force users.
Originally posted by McP
Sometimes it's hard to judge, some sources seems to be really believable. But that might be only an ilusion. Savage's feats from TCWS3 are clearly wrong, yet they are still a canon. There are statements, that he became even stronger... and you know what? If not his duels with Kenobi and Maul, if we could only see him facing Sidious, with another statements like "he became more powerful", "he's stronger and stronger(...)" etc, we should could assume, that he would stomp Obi-Wan or Anakin... or he would be able to kill Dooku.
But that's all wrong.
His S3 feats are not wrong, they are Canon. Savage's strengths helped him to get the better of good opponents at time. His strengths being his Immense physical strength, and his Beastly TK, (all amped to another degree when he was in a fit of rage).
However his lack of skill and training also made him vulnerable to the elite Jedi/Sith when they were going all out on him, especially in a 1 v 1 scenario.
His strength made him much more dangerous as back up to someone like Ventress, than on his own, which explains how easily Dooku took him out one on one in their training session, but then how he became much more dangerous to Dooku as Ventress's back up, and later in a temporary amped Rage fit.
Originally posted by McP
Vader, to prove that those statements are rightful, needs to prove them in battles. He has statements, that nearly puts him in the same league with Sidious. But his TK is nowhere near of that of Sidious. Sidious or Yoda could stomp people of Maul's, Opress', Ventress, Kenobi's level. Vader couldn't. If he could, he wouldn't leave Malachor looking like a barely walking pathetic "half-droid half-man".
How is his TK no where near that of Sidious or Yoda level when he has the biggest TK lifting feats in Canon? And he redirected X-Wing torpedoes for GOD's sake.
And leaving Malachor crippled? What? He was caught at the centre of a Temple destroying blast. That's actually a better durability feat than anything we've seen from Sidious, Yoda, Mace or Dooku.
You seem to just be ignoring (purposefully) his absolute Insane feats, and then saying "he's done nothing to prove his hype" 😬
Be fair dude.
Originally posted by McPYeah, he was distracted, because his perception is below average. He might be extremely powerful, but he's not a good fighter at all.
You sound like you're lowballing dude. A distraction is a distraction. Maul wasn't even distracted when Obi-Wan cut him. He was just being sloppy.
Vadre was distracted by frigging exploding Chicken Walkers. And still the best they could do to him was PUSH him. Well Whoopy Doo.
Originally posted by McP
Lol. That seem just to be a lie. Lucas is the one, that is fully responsible for lowballing Vader. Lucas himself stated, that Ben is just an old man, Vader is a crippled half-droid half-man, and Luke is some inexperienced guy who is learning from those people.
Maul, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan's era was stated to be prime era of warriors. Let alone AOTC and ROTS. It's also a Lucas who is responsible for SW timeline. Because of Lucas Ben, who looks like eighty years old, is in fact about sixty? And Qui-Gon is sixty as well? Lucas could say: they fought in a close quarters, they had no space for acrobatics, or their techniques were far more advanced and they only looked that bad. He could say, that's because of limitations, they could not show their fights properly. Instead of that, he said what he said, and lowballed them more then I could ever have.
So you're argument now is that Filoni is a liar? Really? The guy spent 10 years as Lucas's protégé. I think he will be familiar at things that were important to Lucas.
All Lucas said about Old Ben and Cyborg Vader is that this was a "harder" fight for them than in their youth, because they're old now and half cyborg. He was ONLY Talking about the Saber fight, and Only comparing them to their ROTS incarnations.
Lucas is also on record as stating Vader is 80% of Palpatine in power. Whereas in the new Canon they seem to be reducing that gap even further and going more along the lines of a 90%.
So he's always been Extremely powerful. He's just even more so now.
Originally posted by McP
And do not forget, that in Legends, Luke could contend with Vader. Perhaps he couln't be able to win, if Vader would really want to kill him, perhaps he wasn't ready. But he could compete. A guy, who - like Filoni said - is below Jedi Council from PT. Yeah, Filoni is really a reliable source.
Because Filoni is only concerned with Canon. You're mixing Legends with Canon, and you're also only taking half of what Filoni said.
Filoni said Luke never stood a chance against Vader.
Originally posted by McP
He was at that point. In my opinion he past his prime, but we'll see soon.
There's clearly not been much change in Maul's combat abilities from TPM through TCW to REBELS one way or the other.
Gillard called TPM Maul a level 8 Saber duelist like Dooku and ROTS Kenobi.
TCW Maul was a peer of TCW Kenobi, and now Rebels Maul is a peer to Prime Ahsoka (Filoni's pet powerhouse).
So he might have gone up or down, but the evidence suggests it's not by much either way.
Originally posted by McP
Yeah, except that Sidious already show us, that he's able to use his lightning to disarm people... superior to Mace. And he still had his superior TK. He wasn't like Dooku, you know, handless...
You mean when he disarmed Yoda? Totally different circumstances. Firstly he couldn't just disarm Yoda any time he wanted. Second when he first shot Windu, Windu was forced back. Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod, so he couldn't fall back, and just decided to let his Saber go instead and catch the Lightning in his hands.
Originally posted by McP
You shouldn't say anything about wanking Sidious. If Vader is as powerful as you think he is, then Sidious is as powerful as his wankers think he is. He stomped B-team with a Mace presence. He stomped Savage and Maul, while Vader couln't even best Ahsoka (in fact, he only overhelmed her) and Ben. Vader's other showings are irrelevant. He has no good showings against other Force users. He could have. They could make OM Maul as really powerful, like Dooku or even more. And then Vader would best him or killed him. But for now Maul looks to be pathetic. Killing him wont be a great showing for Vader.
They can also prove, that Ben is prime version of Kenobi. But, I guess, they wont.
Fair point with Sidious vs Maul Opress compared to Vader vs Ahsoka. I admit You've got me there. But then I've never really said Vader would stalemate/beat Sidious in a Saber fight. (I've joked a few times about the list that puts Vader above Sidious as a Saber duelist).
Maul's story isn't over yet though. We will see how "pathetic" he is when all is said and done. Kenobi also had many embarrassing moments in TCW, but went out on a high note with his fight against Maul/Opress.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And leaving Malachor crippled? What? He was caught at the centre of a Temple destroying blast. That's actually a better durability feat than anything we've seen from Sidious, Yoda, Mace or Dooku.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You mean when he disarmed Yoda? Totally different circumstances. Firstly he couldn't just disarm Yoda any time he wanted. Second when he first shot Windu, Windu was forced back. Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod, so he couldn't fall back, and just decided to let his Saber go instead and catch the Lightning in his hands.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
His S3 feats are not wrong, they are Canon.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So you're argument now is that Filoni is a liar? Really?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
How is his TK no where near that of Sidious or Yoda level when he has the biggest TK lifting feats in Canon?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because Filoni is only concerned with Canon. You're mixing Legends with Canon, and you're also only taking half of what Filoni said.Filoni said Luke never stood a chance against Vader.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He was just being sloppy.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lucas is also on record as stating Vader is 80% of Palpatine in power. Whereas in the new Canon they seem to be reducing that gap even further and going more along the lines of a 90%.
Originally posted by darthbane77
That's the thing, Yoda wasn't capable of winning of defeating Sidious; BECAUSE Sidious is more powerful than him and is more powerful than Windu by extension; as proved by the now many quotes I have provided you with. Aside from the "avatar of light" part, there's no hyperbole in any of the quotes I just provided; and even that bit of hyperbole is just as as effective as Sidious or Vitiate's "dark side incanrate" quotes. Your desperation is palpable now. Concede before I embarrass you further.
This is completely and blatantly false, and ignores the source material you keep on trying to spew. Lucas DIRECTLY states in his script, that the emperor appears doomed. Which corroborates what we see on film. Yoda at first seems like he's getting overwhelmed, he then buckles down with the expression of "You F'd now", and proceeds to turn the tide. You can see the expression of OH shit on his face. Ignoring this, or not knowing this, is ignoring the source material.
Further proof your statement is blatantly false. Yoda DISARMED Sids in direct combat. He clearly demonstrated he was better in sabers. Shoot, Sids even tried to run once Yoda was ready to go. He knew better. So somebody who can disarm another of their main killing weapon and what they are trained never to lose... somehow doesn't have a chance to win? Joke much? Maybe you should take your own advice and analyze the source material.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is completely and blatantly false, and ignores the source material you keep on trying to spew. Lucas DIRECTLY states in his script, that the emperor appears doomed. Which corroborates what we see on film. Yoda at first seems like he's getting overwhelmed, he then buckles down with the expression of "You F'd now", and proceeds to turn the tide. You can see the expression of OH shit on his face. Ignoring this, or not knowing this, is ignoring the source material.Further proof your statement is blatantly false. Yoda DISARMED Sids in direct combat. He clearly demonstrated he was better in sabers. Shoot, Sids even tried to run once Yoda was ready to go. He knew better. So somebody who can disarm another of their main killing weapon and what they are trained never to lose... somehow doesn't have a chance to win? Joke much? Maybe you should take your own advice and analyze the source material.
Originally posted by Rebel95
When did he disarm Sidious? It's not shown in the movie. I agree though that Yoda seemed like he was getting overwhelmed by the lightning at first but then turned it back towards Sidious.
In the movie script. It was off-screen tho, but we've seen that after the cut Sidious doesn't have his lightsaber anymore.