Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDPlagueis (and his many predecessors) actually made it his business to be as educated on Sith lore as he could, that fact that Plagueis brings into reasonable doubt what he reads does not make him uninformed, but intelligent.
My point is that Darth Plagueis was not a historian and his knowledge of various developments in the galaxy (and ground realities) was limited.
He believed that Sith spirits (if they even existed) were doomed to so-called Nether Realm and their influence had been negligible. Really?He said that those who survived coporeal death ultimately failed to return to the physical realm, not that it was impossible for them to do so. Which barring the events of KotFE, is true.
Vitiate, in disembodied form, shocked the entire galaxy by devastating Ziost - an event in which both the Republic and Sith suffered heavy losses, but could do nothing about it. Ziost was not an ordinary world. He lost another Voice in Zakuul but continued to influence galactic events in non-corporeal form. My point is that his influence, in disembodied form, was far from being negligible.That happened post publication, in other words a retcon, so hardly proof of anything. On the other hand barring the actions of Valkorion (which Plagueis would have no way of verifying as Vitiate) in the grand schemes of things yeah, the course of galactic events chugged on.
Evidently, Darth Plagueis had little knowledge of Vitiate's exploits and powers or his assessment would have been different.Again, basing that off events published after the fact is stupid, but also wrong.
Here:That doesn't prove your point, only that he doubted the presence of Sith spirits on Korriban, elsewhere he speculating on how the existence of Force spirits could be possible. Try reading the whole book. 👆More interesting are the tales of of Sith ghosts said to haunt everything from the tombs of Korriban to the relics inside Coruscant's Great Galactic Museum. Is it possible that these Masters of the dark side succeeded in preserving their awareness? If so, can they still be queried for their secrets? Unfortunately, I have been to Korriban and I am not convinced that these tales hold truth.
Taken from [B]Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
[/b]
Really?Really. But please, enlighten us on your grand scheme to stick it to me and Elm, or is it all hush hush?
I'd say ROTS Sidious is not necessarily stronger than Plagueis, and if he is, it's not by a large amount. IIRC right after Plagueis emerges from his 20 year hermitage and meets with Sidious, Sidious is basically in awe of him and his strength in the Force.
I'd say at that point Plagueis is stronger than Sidious by a healthy margin. And yes, Sidious was empowered by Plagueis's death(just like Plagueis was after Tenebrous' death) but I see no evidence of the dramatic post-TPM improvement that Sidious fans claim.
If anything the bulk of that time would have been spent training Dooku and preparing for the Clone Wars.
As for Plagueis vs the ancient Sith, I remember at one point in the book Plagueis marvels at some of the feats the ancients had supposedly been capable of. And then he wonders, were they truly stronger than him, or had they benefited from a time when the Dark side was on the rise, or had they simply known techniques that have been lost since?
Take from that what you will.
Plagueis also considered himself a match for the Jedi Order's strongest, meaning Yoda, and I'd say his opinion on that should be taken into account.
Originally posted by Unbowed
I'd say ROTS Sidious is not necessarily stronger than Plagueis, and if he is, it's not by a large amount. IIRC right after Plagueis emerges from his 20 year hermitage and meets with Sidious, Sidious is basically in awe of him and his strength in the Force.I'd say at that point Plagueis is stronger than Sidious by a healthy margin. And yes, Sidious was empowered by Plagueis's death(just like Plagueis was after Tenebrous' death) but I see no evidence of the dramatic post-TPM improvement that Sidious fans claim.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15960229#post15960229
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And after that:But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.
I guess Plagueis never heard of Ragnos, huh.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Plagueis (and his many predecessors) actually made it his business to be as educated on Sith lore as he could, that fact that Plagueis brings into reasonable doubt what he reads does not make him uninformed, but intelligent.
The ground realities
Vitiate was a shadowy figure. Much of the galaxy was unaware of his existence until the Great Galactic War. Republic Special Forces were able to retrieve some Imperial Records from the dreadnought of the Dread Masters, and Jedi Master Gnost-Dural was tasked to decode them with the assistance of SIS. However, findings were treated as classified information. They learned that Vitiate was an ancient Force-user and survivor of the Great Hyperspace War. They also learned about a place called Nathema. They were still clueless about the true extent of Vitiate's powers and/or abilities. They made a foolish attempt to arrest Vitiate (Top Secret Mission), and we know how it ended for them.
Vitiate's Sith followers did not knew much about his past either. Those who learned about Nathema and/or visited it, either ended-up dead or kept mum due to fear of execution.
More importantly, it was nearly impossible for even members of the Dark Council to determine the true extent of his abilities and powers. For example, devastation of Ziost surprised even the likes of Darth Marr:
"This is distressing. Vitiate may be more powerful than any of us assumed." (Darth Marr)
Only a privileged few had an idea but they were not interested in broadcasting their assessments across the galaxy. They disclosed as much as they felt necessary to influence the events, and only to those individuals who were part of the game and/or would not betray their trust.
Forgotten?
Since Vitiate was a shadowy figure and his records were not made public at any point in galactic history (or possibly even destroyed), very little could be learned about his exploits through personal efforts. In this context, Vitiate faded in history and was forgotten.
Now, coming towards the main point:-
My argument is that it was virtually impossible for Darth Plagueis to determine how powerful Vitiate was. Knowledge of Vitiate's longevity and/or his disembodied existence wouldn't be enough.
Even Palpatine learned much more about Darth Malgus than Vitiate. If you think otherwise then prove it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He said that those who survived coporeal death ultimately failed to return to the physical realm, not that it was impossible for them to do so. Which barring the events of KotFE, is true.
Sith Lords who managed to retain their identity after corporeal demise, lurked in the material realm as Force apparitions. However, some were more powerful and influential than others.
To refuse the inevitability of death, and hold on to one's hard-earned power forever, is a proposition many Sith have found impossible to resist. Over the years, Sith have employed cybernetics, dark sciences, and other unsavory techniques in pursuit of eternal life. And when life fails them, Sith persist through their sheer force of will. Holocrons bear their visage and teachings for eternity, while some Sith even break the restraints of death itself to wreak havoc as Force apparitions.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Examples of Force apparitions that influenced galactic affairs:
Death is not the end. For Sith strong in the Dark Side, the demise of the physical body will not stop their relentless campaign for power. Such Sith return as intangible spirits, able to communicate with the living. Among the Sith, these spirits are viewed with caution as well as reverence: Sith entities tend to be powerful, raging at their own demise and seeking revenge, or able to cunningly manipulate the living. The spirits of powerful Sith Lords such as Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, and Karness Muur influenced galactic events and inspired others to do evil long after their physical deaths. For this reason, the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, which houses the sacrophagi of the Sith Emperor's deceased enemies, is as much prison as tomb.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
The list is actually bigger than that. Additional examples include Exar Kun, Terrak Morrhage, Naga Sadow and XoXaan.
A large number of Force apparitions lurked in tombs and/or structures. And were not able to influence galactic affairs because of their limitations or other reasons. The Dark Temple, in particular, was designed to prevent Force apparitions from escaping its halls.
As I pointed out earlier, Darth Plagueis was not a historian and his assessments were not entirely accurate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That happened post publication, in other words a retcon, so hardly proof of anything. On the other hand barring the actions of Valkorion (which Plagueis would have no way of verifying as Vitiate) in the grand schemes of things yeah, the course of galactic events chugged on.
My assessment of Vitiate's superiority over Darth Plagueis is based on real-world perspective of exploits of both. I will not take a marketing statement seriously without looking at other ground realities. Otherwise, Darth Bane > Vitiate and any other powerhouse who came before.
I expect the same from you.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Again, basing that off events published after the fact is stupid, but also wrong.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't prove your point, only that he doubted the presence of Sith spirits on Korriban, elsewhere he speculating on how the existence of Force spirits could be possible. Try reading the whole book. 👆
He did not deny the possibility of transferring consciousness from one body to another. However, this phenomenon clashed with his core beliefs.
"The act of transferring consciousness between bodies touches on a subject that still bothers me. The patterns that define each mind can be stored in the pneuma field, but these patterns degrade almost instantly if they are not anchored in a new biological form. The speed of this degradation is so rapid that it seems to render the argument for life after death moot."
Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
He asserted that disembodied existence would fade rapidly without access to a body. However, he did not rule out the possibility in its entirety:
"Ghost stories are so common that they are laughable, but pneuma leads me to believe such a thing is possible."
Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
He looked at this matter from scientific angle and his conclusion was that Transfer Essence was a possibility (but risky affair). However, he dismissed the possibility of existence of disembodied entities or beings because he had never met one.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Really. But please, enlighten us on your grand scheme to stick it to me and Elm, or is it all hush hush?
Originally posted by Emperordmb
A concerned citizen of KMC who have gotten tired of hearing about ground realities. Beni likely have the same opinion as me.And nah I'm not gay. I wouldn't want to promote gayism, since man have made rules to separate man from beast.
You are tired of debates here then why bother to comment? Stop checking these boards and move-on.