Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDLol.
[B]The ground realities[/b]
Vitiate's Sith followers did not knew much about his past either. Those who learned about Nathema and/or visited it, either ended-up dead or kept mum due to fear of execution.Knowledge of the Nathema ritual was recorded by Revan in his holocron, which Bane transcribed into the Telos Holocron, which remained in the OotSL's possession until Sheev.
More importantly, it was nearly impossible for even members of the Dark Council to determine the true extent of his abilities and powers. For example, devastation of Ziost surprised even the likes of Darth Marr:The devastation of Ziost was a high profile event, known to the galaxy at large. The Monoliths were probably pretty high profile as well."This is distressing. Vitiate may be more powerful than any of us assumed." (Darth Marr)
Only a privileged few had an idea but they were not interested in broadcasting their assessments across the galaxy. They disclosed as much as they felt necessary to influence the events, and only to those individuals who were part of the game and/or would not betray their trust.
[B]Forgotten?Aside from those that were in fact high profile/documented into history.Since Vitiate was a shadowy figure and his records were not made public at any point in galactic history (or possibly even destroyed), very little could be learned about his exploits through personal efforts. In this context, Vitiate faded in history and was forgotten.[/b]
On top of the aforementioned being for example the corruption of Kaas' atmosphere (widely rumoured to be Vitiate's doing); the Dark Temple nexus (common knowledge that Vitiate was responsible), the Lokess incident (a public lesson retold for centuries), the mental domination of Revan and Malak (deduced by Tol Braga) and probably more besides.
Now, coming towards the main point:-Plagueis may not have been in a position to gain total knowledge of Vitiate's power, but a good impression of his abilities, alongside knowledge of his best showings, is a likelihood, and still he was not impressed.My argument is that it was virtually impossible for Darth Plagueis to determine how powerful Vitiate was. Knowledge of Vitiate's longevity and/or his disembodied existence wouldn't be enough.
Does that makes any sense?We are talking about Vitiate here, the antics of others aren't relevant to his knowledge of the Emperor's spiritual activities.Sith Lords who managed to retain their identity after corporeal demise, lurked in the material realm as Force apparitions. However, some were more powerful and influential than others.
As I pointed out earlier, Darth Plagueis was not a historian and his assessments were not entirely accurate.And this isn't a fact checking seminar, but an assessment of his knowledge of Vitiate.
See? You are looking at this matter from real-world perspective.Darth Bane > those before has reasserted by the Official Fact File. so I expect this dismissive logic to be applied to sourcebooks as well.My assessment of Vitiate's superiority over Darth Plagueis is based on real-world perspective of exploits of both. I will not take a marketing statement seriously without looking at other ground realities. Otherwise, Darth Bane > Vitiate and any other powerhouse who came before.
I expect the same from you.
I have read it. You need to read it however.We're not discussing essence transfer.He did not deny the possibility of transferring consciousness from one body to another. However, this phenomenon clashed with his core beliefs.
He asserted that disembodied existence would fade rapidly without access to a body. However, he did not rule out the possibility in its entirety:A concession then, let's move on."Ghost stories are so common that they are laughable, but pneuma leads me to believe such a thing is possible."
Taken from [B]Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
[/b]
He looked at this matter from scientific angle and his conclusion was that Transfer Essence was a possibility (but risky affair). However, he dismissed the possibility of existence of disembodied entities or beings because he had never met one.Wrong again. I get that English isn't your first language, but it becomes embarrassing when the evidence is right there in your own posts.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Knowledge of the Nathema ritual was recorded by Revan in his holocron, which Bane transcribed into the Telos Holocron, which remained in the OotSL's possession until Sheev.
Darth Revan's words were preserved by Darth Bane, who transcribed them from his memory of Revan's holocron. The holocron was three thousand years old when Bane discovered and studied it on Korriban. To prevent anyone else from studying the Holocron, Bane destroyed it shortly after the final Battle of Ruusan.
"I am Darth Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith. Those who use the dark side are also bound to serve it. To understand this is to understand the underlying philosophy of the Sith. The dark side offers power for power's sake. You must crave it. Covet it. You must seek power above all else, with no reservation or hesitation. The Force will change you. It will transform you. Some fear this change. The teachings of the Jedi are focused on fighting and controlling this transformation. That is why those who serve the light are limited in what they accomplish.
True power can come only to those who embrace the transformation. There can be no compromise. Mercy, compassion, loyalty: all these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours. Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits. Those who do not—those who try to walk the path of moderation—will fail, dragged down by their own weakness. Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it. By its very nature the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student.
This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be. My time here is ended. Take what I have taught you and use it well."
Taken from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
That is all.
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Darth Bane considered some information in Revan's Holocron too dangerous to consider:
Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron’s avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them.
Taken from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
- and destroyed Darth Revan's Holocron after studying it. Although, he documented the contents of Darth Revan's Holocron on several sheets of flimsiplast, he dispatched that information to Lord Kaan through a droid:
She left the tent a few moments later, taking the message drone and the coordinates Bane had sent along for the meeting. Kaan had every confidence she'd get the job done. And he saw no reason to share with her the small package that had arrived in the message drone's storage compartment.
Bane had sent it to Lord Kaan as a peace offering; a way to atone for Kas'im's death. It wasn’t much to look at: text written on several sheets of flimsi, the writing cramped and hurried as if it had been recorded while listening to someone else speak. Yet within its pages it contained a detailed description of one of the most fearsome creations of the ancient Sith: the thought bomb.
Taken from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
And we know what became of Lord Kaan and the entire Brotherhood of Darkness afterwards. Therefore, this documentation also faded from existence.
In the nutshell, all traces of the 'practical component' of the information contained in Darth Revan's holocron, faded from existence one way or the other.
---
On top of the aforementioned, Darth Gravid deprived Darth Plagueis from a treasure-trove of ancient knowledge through his own sabotaging efforts:
Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. More to the point, Darth Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
In short:
"Gravid was an invention of mine. I needed some way to distance Plagueis from the ancient teachings and powers. The more I thought about Gravid, the more interesting his/her story became. In my mind, at any rate." (James Luceno)
Why do you think Darth Plagueis adopted a different path for achieving corporeal immortality? Why he did not just attempt Vitiate's methods to achieve it? No, Nathema Ritual was not mandatory for it. Vitiate developed safer methods to achieve corporeal immortality as apparent from the transformation of Lord Scourge.
Your point is moot.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The devastation of Ziost was a high profile event, known to the galaxy at large. The Monoliths were probably pretty high profile as well.
The chancellor of the Republic broadcasted a news that she was dispatching a contingent of Republic forces to Ziost to free its inhabitants from the oppression of Sith. The usual propaganda stuff. What exactly was happening down there, was classified.
Of-course, a number of Jedi and Sith were aware of developments on Ziost but they would not broadcast it. Otherwise, people would have panicked across the galaxy.
This was the impression centuries later:
Ziost had been the capital of the Sith Empire under both King Adas and Jedi Exile Ajunta Pall, as well as their successors. As with most planets of Sith Space, war and the dark side stripped life from the planet until it became a barren ball of lifeless rock.
Taken from Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook
Very generic. No mention of Vitiate in that.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Aside from those that were in fact high profile/documented into history.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On top of the aforementioned being for example the corruption of Kaas' atmosphere (widely rumoured to be Vitiate's doing); the Dark Temple nexus (common knowledge that Vitiate was responsible), the Lokess incident (a public lesson retold for centuries), the mental domination of Revan and Malak (deduced by Tol Braga) and probably more besides.
Lord Scourge initially perceived Vitiate's involvement in the corruption of Dromund Kaas as rumors. He co-existed with Vitiate but still had no idea. The true extent of Vitiate's powers became apparent to him during his tenure as the Emperor's Wrath; a special position. He shared his knowledge with Hero of Tython but their are no known records of this information. More importantly, Darth Plagueis did not had access to Jedi Temple and its Archives.
Jedi learned lot of stuff but they kept much of that information classified. Sometimes I wonder if you have read any novels or books, that I have to tell you basic stuff like his one. 🙄
Do not forget that the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire also perished at some point. And the Jedi were notorious for securing and/or destroying sources of knowledge featuring Sith such as holocrons, tomes and artifacts. On top of that, some Sith were reluctant to share their findings with others and their knowledge perished with them. Eventually, a modern era Sith had limited knowledge of developments in the past.
Palpatine had much better luck at rediscovering ancient sources of knowledge than Darth Plagueis. However, neither he and nor his master was able to learn much about Vitiate and his exploits, and nothing implies otherwise.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Plagueis may not have been in a position to gain total knowledge of Vitiate's power, but a good impression of his abilities, alongside knowledge of his best showings, is a likelihood, and still he was not impressed.
Joke of the century. Profile-worthy.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
We are talking about Vitiate here, the antics of others aren't relevant to his knowledge of the Emperor's spiritual activities.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And this isn't a fact checking seminar, but an assessment of his knowledge of Vitiate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Darth Bane > those before has reasserted by the Official Fact File. so I expect this dismissive logic to be applied to sourcebooks as well.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
We're not discussing essence transfer.A concession then, let's move on.
I shall give it another try with the hope that you might have the intellectual capability to understand it.
Darth Plagueis was fully aware of stories and legends of Force apparitions and vice versa. However, he had a scientific mindset and had his share of doubts. He did not dismiss the possibility of preservation of consciousness outside a physical body (hint: pneuma) but he was of the opinion that it would fade rapidly in such a state. However, he believed that consciousness of a living being could be imprinted in the mind of another body. The crux of his argument was that a Force apparition (like state) was short-lived, not long-lasting. Therefore, he was skeptical about existence of Force apparitions in the manner as described in stories and legends.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wrong again. I get that English isn't your first language, but it becomes embarrassing when the evidence is right there in your own posts.
