Vitiate/Revan vs. Sidious/Plagueis

I’m starting to detest your attempts at literature interpretation.
Vitiate was only using “a fraction” of his power and, yet, the two fallen Jedi “succumbed utterly” to it. That Revan was able to “resist” it later is explained in the novel:

“I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same.” – Revan.

He has found a way to do this because he was a victim of Vitiate before. All other succumb to his power, because they were not and not just because they “lack willpower”, which is hardly an explanation for Revan getting dominated by Vitiate.

Vitiate was weakened on Ziost, true, but Ziost is also a dark side nexus, which amped him, so it balances out.

I’m still marveling about this entire “Dark Side nexus” mumbo-jumbo. We don’t know anything about the strength of the effects a Dark Side nexus might have on somebody who utilizes the Dark Side. So your assumption that it would “balance out” the lack of an actual body and being freshly resurrected is without basis. As is the idea, that a Dark Side nexus would significantly boost the powers of a Dark Sider. And I find it especially stupid to bring that up, when arguing in favor for a person, who performed all of his feats benefitting from an unbalanced force, which probably trumps any Dark Side nexus when it comes down to “boosting abilities”.

But once again you haven’t even addressed my point, which was that if Lana could resist Vitiate with prep, and if 17-year-old Sheev could resist Plagueis with no prep, then a fully trained Sidious could obviously resist Vitiate (whose willpower is eclipsed by that of Plagueis).

Which is, once again, drawing (false) conclusions out of nowhere. Where does Sidious ever “resist” Plagueis? Where does Plagueis ever utilized mind-control even remotely as powerful as that of Vitiate. And how would Sidious training affect his ability to resist that kind of mind-domination anyway? If Revan, who had nothing to learn from the Jedi of his age any longer, was incapable of resisting the effect, despite of his raw power, training and willpower, I seriously doubt that Sidious can do the job.

Neither instance was outright “mindrape” but the Force user in question also happens to be far more powerful than Vitiate, so it balances out.

Neither instance does even show him using telepathy. The first is just an interpretation of Yoda’s state of being, the latter is a vision / illusion. How is that even remotely comparable to turning people into mindless puppets dominated by your will? Then you’re arguing in circles, by assuming that Yoda is far more powerful than Vitiate (which I find rather laughable) in order to proof that Sidious – Yoda’s “equal” – is more powerful than Vitiate.

Now, do you have some other rebuttals other than a blatant argument from ignorance?

Pardon me. I have arguments, where you are just tossing your ridiculous attempts at literature interpretation in, make baseless assumption and argue in circles. Come back when you make sense.

It was merely proof that Vitiate has been mentally influenced before and that he is not immune.

He has been “mentally influenced” by a person that mind he invaded whenever he saw fit for 300 years, while underestimating him at the same time. So really. Did you want to present “proof” for the idea that Sidious, after getting turned into a puppet, could maybe convince Vitiate of the idea not to kill him? Because that’s about as far as you get with that example.

Vitiate maintained a mental link with his children through which he knew what they were doing and could take control of them when the situation called for it; he did not actively control them all at the same time 24/7. There’s a massive difference. Having a mental link is not a feat.

He did actively suppress their knowledge of being his children and he did “listen in” on all of them at the same time, which would require some not so easily imaginable mental capacities in the first place. And he still was suppressing Vaylin at the same time and controlled his second host body (with all its power) on Zakuul. And he was completely controlling the “possessed” population of Ziost later, which were – literally – dozens or hundreds (maybe even thousands) of individuals at the same time.

The only feat worth mentioning is him suppressing Vaylin, which doesn’t compare to suppressing 10000 Jedi in the slightest.

Which Sidious never did with any kind of active ability. The only thing even remotely coming close to a feat like that, is the ritual that he conducted in “Sith’isis”. But then, influencing the minds of all Jedi in the Galaxy via a ritual kind of pales in comparison to a ritual that drains all Force energy in the Galaxy.

How exactly is absorbing the blade with Tutaminis the equivalent of bending it with Force lightning? That makes literally zero sense. They are completely different powers. Tutaminis also isn’t a way to measure raw Force power. There are individuals who are extremely proficient with the ability, yet would get stomped by Force users who cannot absorb lightsaber blades. Nejaa Halcyon and Shaak Ti are examples of this from the PT era, and Satele seems to be one from the OR era.

How exactly are you attempting to make a point by comparing force powers – even the same force power – when used differently?

And how is it a testament to Sidious’ power? Well, when two lightsabers clash, they remain straight, the only force pushing the other backward is the arm strength of the wielder. But when a lightsaber is hit with Sidious’ lightning, it becomes distorted. Despite Mace having the arm strength to push the hilt forward, the blade bent backward (or sideways, if you go by the movie); he overwhelmed the lightsaber’s capacity to absorb energy. Or in other words, his lightning is more potent than lightsaber plasma.

Apparently, you didn’t just miss literature interpretation in school, but also skipped physics class. Lightsaber blades are energy / plasma beams. How much “force” is required to “bend” those exactly? How is the strength of the wielder even a factor, provided those blades are weightless and can, therefore, generate next to no momentum from mentioned physical strength? Again, your comparing apples to oranges and again, your interpretation doesn’t make sense.

You don’t need any kind of super powerful energy lightning to mess around with a lightsaber blade. At least nothing that even remotely compares to the energy required to instantly burn people into ash.

Vitiate destroyed T3 with Telekinesis, not lightning.

Ah. Yes. Not that making a droid “explode into a million pieces” with TK isn’t impressive. He was still boiling Revan’s skin and superheating Revan’s mask within split seconds of hitting him. Sidious just x-rays people.

Starkiller is better than Nyriss, Vader is better than Revan, and Sidious is better than Vitiate.

Didn’t I state already, that ipsedixitism doesn’t win arguments? “Because I say so” is not a valid point and, gosh, that is about as far you got here.

Where exactly do you see the scene being overwritten? By what? When we cut away from Yoda and Sidious to Vader and Obi-Wan, the former were clashing lightsabers on the Chancellor’s podium. Yet when we come back, Sidious has lost his lightsaber and is levitating on the upper senate pods. There’s an entire portion of the duel that was cut out. The junior novelization fills that void. Even the movie’s script depicts events similarly to the junior novel, validating it further. It doesn’t contradict the movie; it supplements it.

Let’s accept that idea that it happened then. We’re once again confronted with your inability to read texts. Where is the lightning thrown back into Sidious face? It “bents back towards the Emperor”, yes. But apparently, it merely stays between Yoda and Sidious – much like in the final stage of the duel – instead of “hitting” Sidious (which is the interpretation you came up with ex nihilo). So?

Palpatine’s face didn’t “melt”; it just broke the mask, revealing the true face of Darth Sidious:

"Always two there are"—not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world.

-The Complete Visual Dictionary

Sidious wasn’t harmed in any way, so the junior novel doesn’t contradict the movie. Sidious can tank his Force lightning like nothing, and as his lightning is more powerful than Vitiate’s, he’ll be walking through the latter’s feeble attempts to kill him.

Yeah. The RotS Commentary is still the higher canon:

” These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the Force lightning reflected back, and he's getting zapped, and the strain of all of this exertion is what's transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi.”

Emphasis mine.
He’s excerting himself with generating the lightning that is thrown back into his face and he’s getting zapped. Highest level of canon. So he was damaged by getting his own lightning thrown back in his face which – even if it doesn’t contradict the novel – it clearly does contradict your interpretation of the novel. Maybe a little bit of reading comprehension would be nice to have before attempting to argue literature, huh?

Fair enough on the Yoda part. But as you said, the explosion is basically Sidious’ energy from an extended period of time gathered into a single attack. I don’t understand how that’s somehow not impressive, though, given that it’s obviously more powerful than Sidious’ standard burst of Force lightning. Yet he still tanked it without a scratch. Vitiate cannot kill Sidious.

The fact that a blast of Sidious accumulated power is just enough to throw Yoda and Sidious a few meters backwards is so utterly laughable, that you’re just reaching now. If the “explosion” had caused any structural damage to the podium, your petty “interpretation” would make sense. But it doesn’t. It merely throws the opponents backwards – and not even far. And even assuming, that they were protected by their respective force defense, the result isn’t impressive. And your “conclusion” here is just a joke.

This is all just your head canon. I mean, is any of that actually stated anywhere in the source material?

It is fairly obvious to anybody who reads the source material without having a massive Sidious induced boner that drains all the blood from his brain, which appears to be the case with you.

The Sith did not overpower the Force using the Force, like you suggest, but with their minds.

Seriously, kid: Do you even think before you start typing? Every act involving the Force constitutes as a use of the Force. Even if they wanted to overthrow the Force with their “minds”, they’d need to use the force to get the message across first.

Sidious’ – and presumably Plagueis’ since he was part of the unbalancing, although he has no additional feats to confirm this – will transcends the use of the Force.

Again: This is so cringeworthy, that it almost hurts. Seriously, kid. You’re just reaching now…

In DE, when he was cut off from the Force by the Skywalker twins, he was consumed by his Force Storm, and essentially died as a non-Force sensitive, having no way to use Force, and no way to become a spirit.

First: You may want to read the comic. They are cutting his connection to the Force storm off, which is then going out of control and consumes him.

Secondly: Even following your great “interpretation”, you’d still have the example of Ulic Qel-Droma, who was cut off from the force by Nomi Sunrider and yet, he still became a spirit. D’uh.

In EE, Sidious notes that it was the spirits if the ancient Sith who helped him back to the physical realm. This was retconned in TCSWE, stating that:

Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

No shit, Sherlock. Sidious managed to retain his identity, which is, essentially, what becoming a force spirits means, contrasted with entering the netherworld of the Force. This is, clearly, nothing unique there.

And TCSWE is written by historians who are completely omniscient, meaning their word has just as much weight as Sidious’ own, if not more. That is why it can be treated as a retcon.

Aside from putting “omniscient beings” on one level with Sidious (LMAO), I’ve already destroyed the idea, that those are truly omniscient, as you may want to read above. Furthermore: Again your interpretation of the source material is utterly wrong.

Sidious’ will is beyond that of the Force. He did not need the Force to return to the physical realm, and his will alongside that of Plagueis’ also overpowered the Force itself. Vitiate stands no chance.

Really, kid. So Vitiate has no chance against Sidious, because Sidious managed to survive the destruction of his body. Erm. Do you maybe want to think that one over. Because, you know, you are comparing Sidious to the guy who doesn’t just always return when his physical body gets destroyed, but who also becomes stronger each time somebody “defeats” him.

And Anakin Skywalker is does not counter my point. The Force created him before Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced it.

You may want to go check the timeline, kid. Not that it matters anyway. If Anakin was created before the unbalancing, that’s an argument for my side, as it proves that the force did act rather than react.

I do not see how this proves me wrong. Anakin was created because the Force could not restore balance any other way.

You’re still not getting the point. Maybe I need to explain it in an even easier fashion for you:

1)
The Force could have stopped the process of unbalancing at any given point in time, as was said by Plagueis himself. It decided not to.

2)
Even after the unbalancing, the Force – and here is the crux – is still an omnipotent entity with an own will and could still have exterminated the Sith on its own. It decided not to.

3)
The Force could have made Anakin the “perfect Jedi” by ensuring that he was conceived within Republic space, under which circumstances he would have been discovered by the Jedi Order and trained from infancy on. The Force decided not to do it that way.

I could even make it more basic for you: Your idea, that Sidious and Plagueis had any kind of sovereignty over the Force is directly contradicted by the fact, that the Force could muster a way bring them down again.

Sidious > Plagueis>= Vitiate/Valkorion >> Revan

Team 2 every single time

Nai, I will respond sometime in the near future.

Originally posted by Azronger
Nai, I will respond sometime in the near future.

Whatever. Your nonsense "interpretations" aren't worth my time. If you return with more of the same stuff, I will simply pick my favorites and hold you up to ridicule until you've learned something.

Mhm.

Nai I think you are interpreting the "will of the Force" a little too literally, there is in fact no concrete evidence that the Force is conscious, autonomous, wilful or omnipotent at all, nor do the Jedi believe this, far more likely it is simply a force of nature, not an actual god.

More to the point you need to substantiate these claims with something more than, well, baseless assertion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nai I think you are interpreting the "will of the Force" a little too literally, there is in fact no concrete evidence that the Force is conscious, autonomous, wilful or omnipotent at all, nor do the Jedi believe this, far more likely it is simply a force of nature, not an actual god.

More to the point you need to substantiate these claims with something more than, well, baseless assertion.

I was going to say that eventually, but meh. Want to take over the debate? I'm rather busy irl.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nai I think you are interpreting the "will of the Force" a little too literally, there is in fact no concrete evidence that the Force is conscious, autonomous, wilful or omnipotent at all, nor do the Jedi believe this, far more likely it is simply a force of nature, not an actual god.

More to the point you need to substantiate these claims with something more than, well, baseless assertion.

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you." - Qui-Gon Jinn, The Phantom Menace

Emphasis mine. You may want to go and argue with George Lucas on this one. Or maybe you want to go and argue with James Luceno on this:

"Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Emphasis mine. Again the Force is described as an entity rather than a mere energy field. An entity capable of utilizing its "army" to stop the Sith.

The idea, that the Force has a will and can communicate it, is the entire basis for the Clone Wars episodes "Voices" and "Destiny", where Yoda is called by the voice of Qui-Gon and travels to the planet from which all life originated, to learn from the Force directly. The reason for this "training" granted to him, is that he will, one day, train somebody of great importance to the universe (obviously Luke).

During that episodes, Yoda forsees the execution of Order 66 which is probably what enables him to survive the actual event later. And the Force is training him in order to be capable of training a yet unborn Luke, an act necessary because of events that were far from unfolding at that particular point in time.

This is a clear instance of advanced planning by the Force in order to archive a desired outcome, shaping events that were technically not "forseeable", unless you want to assume, that Anakin's actions during RotS were completely predictable - or more to the point: predetermined. Or maybe, there was just a bunch of symbiotic lifeforms, constantly whispering into his ear, telling him what he should do. Which would lead us back to the first quote from TPM.

You see: I really don't want to lecture you on predeterminism / free will debates, which are an ongoing topic in the realm of philosophy. The point is, and still stands, that it is impossible to act against the will of an omnipotential entity. Especially not, if you need to use parts of that entity (or its power) to do the deed.

And that the Force has a will is quite clearly demonstrated by the fact that Anakin exists, which was according to the will of the Force. Which means that it is an entity, rather than a "force of nature" as you see it.

That aside: Until now, nobody but myself has managed to come up with any kind or reasonable explanation, why the Force didn't stop Plagueis and Sidious directly or why the two Sith should have risked their lives (according to Plagueis' thoughts) to shift the balance of the Force in the first place.

Originally posted by Nai
"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. [b]They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you." - Qui-Gon Jinn, The Phantom Menace[/b]

Emphasis mine. You may want to go and argue with George Lucas on this one. Or maybe you want to go and argue with James Luceno on this:

"Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, [b]the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Emphasis mine. Again the Force is described as an entity rather than a mere energy field. An entity capable of utilizing its "army" to stop the Sith.[/b]

Which leaves use with "proxy army", seems like another metaphor tbh. The midichlorians are indeed numerous and act in accordance with the flow of the Force, but that doesn't mean the Force is issuing literal commands.

The idea, that the Force has a will and can communicate it, is the entire basis for the Clone Wars episodes "Voices" and "Destiny", where Yoda is called by the voice of Qui-Gon and travels to the planet from which all life originated, to learn from the Force directly. The reason for this "training" granted to him, is that he will, one day, train somebody of great importance to the universe (obviously Luke).

During that episodes, Yoda forsees the execution of Order 66 which is probably what enables him to survive the actual event later. And the Force is training him in order to be capable of training a yet unborn Luke, an act necessary because of events that were far from unfolding at that particular point in time.

This is a clear instance of advanced planning by the Force in order to archive a desired outcome, shaping events that were technically not "forseeable", unless you want to assume, that Anakin's actions during RotS were completely predictable - or more to the point: predetermined. Or maybe, there was just a bunch of symbiotic lifeforms, constantly whispering into his ear, telling him what he should do. Which would lead us back to the first quote from TPM.

You see: I really don't want to lecture you on predeterminism / free will debates, which are an ongoing topic in the realm of philosophy. The point is, and still stands, that it is impossible to act against the will of an omnipotential entity. Especially not, if you need to use parts of that entity (or its power) to do the deed.

And that the Force has a will is quite clearly demonstrated by the fact that Anakin exists, which was according to the will of the Force. Which means that it is an entity, rather than a "force of nature" as you see it.

That aside: Until now, nobody but myself has managed to come up with any kind or reasonable explanation, why the Force didn't stop Plagueis and Sidious directly or why the two Sith should have risked their lives (according to Plagueis' thoughts) to shift the balance of the Force in the first place.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering there is no evidence the Force possesses a language or that Force users here voices inside their heads, I think we can safely say this is metaphorical.

No. We can't say that, because a "metaphor" is an image that stands for something else. What does "will of the Force" stand for exactly, huh?

And there is no evidence for the Force communicating? Behold Obi-Wan Kenobi:

"Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent dura-steel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come...until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, Now." - RotS Novelization

D'uh. I could also just point to the fact, that the Force "contacts" Yoda through Qui-Gon's spirit and through the Five Priestesses he encounters when visiting the origin-planet of the midi-chlorians in "Destiny".

Not seeing the word entity there, though energy field is indeed the first way in which the Force was described back in ANH.

Oh. Gosh. I bet Sidious is never called "individual" in the SW sources. That probably means he is none? If the Force can utilize midi-chlorians as an "army", that implies that the Force is indeed an entity. Because an energy field that exists as some "force of nature", would neither be described as having a will, nor would it be described as having an army. Nor would it develop a rather complex plan to restore itself to balance (why do you keep ignoring that latter fact, huh?)

And the instances in which the Force is described as an acting party are pretty much endless in Legends. Again, one just needs to look at the RotS novelization:

"Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him." - RotS Novelization

In fact, the entire fight scene between Obi-Wan and Grievous, told from Kenobi's point of view, makes it seem as if he is merely a tool wielded by the Force - not vice versa. The Force collapses him, hurls him, whispers and talks to him, stops him etc.

Which leaves use with "proxy army", seems like another metaphor tbh. The midichlorians are indeed numerous and act in accordance with the flow of the Force, but that doesn't mean the Force is issuing literal commands.

Again: A "metaphor" is an image that stands for something else or describes something in an easier fashion. What does it stand for? Especially in the context, which you seem to ignore entirely: Plagueis suggest that the Force will utilize the midi-chlorians to kill him and Sidious. Metaphorically? 🙄

Except he doesn't learn anything from the Force directly, he's taught by the Priestesses, and a manifestation of his Self.

And the Priestesses are what exactly?
Not to forget the spirit of Qui-Gon:
"I have been tasked with guiding you forward." - Qui-Gon's spirit to Yoda, Clone Wars: Destiny

Tasked by whom? The "metaphorical" will of the Force?

Conjecture, lol. Yoda enter the dark side cave and was given a vision of the dark side, relevant to him. That's all.

Lmao. Seriously, pal?

He sees Sidious fight against the four Jedi Masters coming to arrest him, exactly forseeing the way they die later, even going so far that Mace's right hand is missing in the vision and the dialogue being exactly the words spoken as they will appear later (Sidious: "No. YOU will die."😉

When he talks to Qui-Gon's spirit after experiencing that vision, he doesn't even ask, whether this is accurate or if he can prevent this. The only question he asks is: "When will this happen?"

Or maybe just not? I mean, is there any reason this must be the case?

Given the accuracy and detail of the vision that Yoda experiences, this must be the case, as there is no other series of events that would possible lead to that exact same scenario.

No need, its a moot point when you haven't proven the Force is omnipotent, or a sentient entity at all.

Since there is enough evidence that the Force is a sentient entity, that you are just chosing to ignore starting with the fact that it "produced" Anakin to restore balance, we can just move to the "ominpotent" bit. And the Force doesn't need to be "ominipotent". It just needs to be capable of killing individuals. Do you need proof for that idea?

Why? Natural forces have acted in more complex ways. Seems more simply a matter of cause and effect.

Oh really? When?

I have never seen a "force of nature" attempting to establish balance within its system, when that system was unbalanced by acts of human beings. I've never seen a "force of nature" create life to archive such a goal, a deed that - in itself - requires a will to do so in the first place. What is "cause and effect" there? Had the Force just destroyed the imminent threat to the balance, you'd have a point. But the way it did act involved planning.

Because it's not a sentient entity that can take direct action in this manner?

I think there is no basis any longer to argue the Force's status as sentient entity, since the evidence that it is one is overwhelming where suggeting otherwise is, essentially, completely baseless.

The Force could have acted in all sorts of ways, from alarming the Jedi Order to simply shutting the Sith's connection to the Force down. Instead, it chose to act like it did, apparently for a reason.

And you have again ignored the question, why Sidious and Plagueis would risk their lives to unbalance the Force, when there was, you know, pretty much no reason to do this, especially not at the risk of pretty much ending the Sith in an act that, following Plagueis words, could have been pretty suicidal.

Originally posted by Nai
No. We can't say that, because a "metaphor" is an image that stands for something else. What does "will of the Force" stand for exactly, huh?

Regardless I've been looking for the quote in which its describe as such, and have found it:

"...you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean; it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth - if any truth is ever simple - is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."

--Obi-Wan Kenobi, Revenge of the Sith novelisation.

And there is no evidence for the Force communicating? Behold Obi-Wan Kenobi:

"Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent dura-steel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come...until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, Now." - RotS Novelization

D'uh. I could also just point to the fact, that the Force "contacts" Yoda through Qui-Gon's spirit and through the Five Priestesses he encounters when visiting the origin-planet of the midi-chlorians in "Destiny".

And you could, but you've had no proof that it was the Force itself that had commanded him, or that if it had it did so through sentience.

Oh. Gosh. I bet Sidious is never called "individual" in the SW sources. That probably means he is none? If the Force can utilize midi-chlorians as an "army", that implies that the Force is indeed an entity. Because an energy field that exists as some "force of nature", would neither be described as having a will, nor would it be described as having an army. Nor would it develop a rather complex plan to restore itself to balance (why do you keep ignoring that latter fact, huh?)

And the instances in which the Force is described as an acting party are pretty much endless in Legends. Again, one just needs to look at the RotS novelization:

"Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him." - RotS Novelization

In fact, the entire fight scene between Obi-Wan and Grievous, told from Kenobi's point of view, makes it seem as if he is merely a tool wielded by the Force - not vice versa. The Force collapses him, hurls him, whispers and talks to him, stops him etc.

But do you really believe this omnipotent entity would be so petty as to take sides in a lightsaber duel? Lol.

Again: A "metaphor" is an image that stands for something else or describes something in an easier fashion. What does it stand for?

Especially in the context, which you seem to ignore entirely: Plagueis suggest that the Force will utilize the midi-chlorians to kill him and Sidious. Metaphorically? 🙄

And the Priestesses are what exactly?
Not to forget the spirit of Qui-Gon:
"I have been tasked with guiding you forward." - Qui-Gon's spirit to Yoda, Clone Wars: Destiny

Tasked by whom? The "metaphorical" will of the Force?

Lmao. Seriously, pal?

He sees Sidious fight against the four Jedi Masters coming to arrest him, exactly forseeing the way they die later, even going so far that Mace's right hand is missing in the vision and the dialogue being exactly the words spoken as they will appear later (Sidious: "No. YOU will die."😉

When he talks to Qui-Gon's spirit after experiencing that vision, he doesn't even ask, whether this is accurate or if he can prevent this. The only question he asks is: "When will this happen?"

Given the accuracy and detail of the vision that Yoda experiences, this must be the case, as there is no other series of events that would possible lead to that exact same scenario.

Since there is enough evidence that the Force is a sentient entity, that you are just chosing to ignore starting with the fact that it "produced" Anakin to restore balance, we can just move to the "ominpotent" bit.

And the Force doesn't need to be "ominipotent". It just needs to be capable of killing individuals. Do you need proof for that idea?

Oh really? When?

I have never seen a "force of nature" attempting to establish balance within its system, when that system was unbalanced by acts of human beings. I've never seen a "force of nature" create life to archive such a goal, a deed that - in itself - requires a will to do so in the first place. What is "cause and effect" there? Had the Force just destroyed the imminent threat to the balance, you'd have a point. But the way it did act involved planning.

But nah, I guess God is just giving them pointers. Hallowed Be His Name. mmm

I think there is no basis any longer to argue the Force's status as sentient entity, since the evidence that it is one is overwhelming where suggeting otherwise is, essentially, completely baseless.

The Force could have acted in all sorts of ways, from alarming the Jedi Order to simply shutting the Sith's connection to the Force down. Instead, it chose to act like it did, apparently for a reason.

On the other hand if the Force had struck them down with divine justice or rang up the local Jedi police force ("yo yo Sith Lords be at 77 Evil Avenue, cuff em!) you might have a point, but it did not.

And you have again ignored the question, why Sidious and Plagueis would risk their lives to unbalance the Force, when there was, you know, pretty much no reason to do this, especially not at the risk of pretty much ending the Sith in an act that, following Plagueis words, could have been pretty suicidal.

Nai, none of what you said proves the Force is omnipotent, much less that Plagueis and Sidious couldn't dominate it.

Ipdexifsmsdms!

Interesting discussion. @ Beniboybling and Azronger

Question, if (according to the quote provided from - Obi-Wan Kenobi, Revenge of the Sith novelisation.) the will of the force is more of a metaphorical term then would that not negate Anakin’s birth, purpose and the prophesy behind the chosen one?

Two – how can a statement be made that Sidious and Plagueis could or did dominate the force since no one truly knows its purpose?

Two – how can a statement be made that Sidious and Plagueis could or did dominate the force since no one truly knows its purpose?

Because it happened in the book. Or if you want to argue it didn't happen, then provide evidence.

The answer for one and two are the same, the Force naturally strives for a state of balance, so it stands to reason that something significantly threatening to that equilibrium would be met with a response. And to forcibly upset that balance is to exert dominance, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The answer for one and two are the same, the Force naturally strives for a state of balance, so it stands to reason that something significantly threatening to that equilibrium would be met with a response. And to forcibly upset that balance is to exert dominance, yeah.

I except your answer but do not agree. I see where you are coming from though. To dominate means to exert power and influence over something, to rule over in other words. I don’t think you can equate what Sid and Plag did as ruling over the force but simply using it for a particular purpose as all force users do. They can only do what the force allows them to do.

If you change the flow of a river that doesn’t mean you rule or dominate the river. It simply means you were able to use it for a particular purpose. You must still respect the power and laws of the river.

If you defy the laws of gravity (flying for example) that does not mean you rule or dominate gravity it simply means you were able to use it for a particular purpose. You must still respect and obey the laws of gravity.

Since Anakin was created (a life) by the force and actually fulfilled the prophecy it could stand to reason that the force is Omnipotent.

That is how I see it.

Well that's simply a matter of semantics tbh, it doesn't change the nature of the act i.e. a gravitic shift to the dark side of the Force that granted them immense power, both tangibly and cosmologically, and triggered the creation of the Chosen One.

I agree though that ultimate sovereignty over the Force is impossible (at least for them) hence the Chosen One and their ultimately downfall. However I don't think the Anakin is proof of an omnipotent will, just the cosmological equivalent of an antibody.

Nai absolutely crushed Az.
😂