Originally posted by Deronn_solo
As Vitiate, he absolutely can't get past the dozens or so quotes that list Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord ever. As Valkorion, he still has the DE End Note quotes to deal with, but thanks to how archaic they are, one could argue around it.
Team 1. Because all of the referenced quotes are either coming from characters and are, thus, questionable or - for the newer stuff - don't even acknowledge the existance of Vitiate. Or both. Means none of them can be used to prove anything.
So we go back to the realm of feats, where Vitiate makes Sidious and Plagueis look like cheap pseudo-Sith in both combat related feats and esoteric powers / knowledge, thanks to him being, you know, a force prodigy who absorbed the power of 8,000 Sith Lord and then took a millenium to practice his skills and exercise his power.
And while I doubt that Vitiate would solo this, unless he attempts some mindrape on Sidious and Plagueis, those two would still go down, mainly through a lack of variety in terms of offensive force powers against two opponents who can tank quite a lot in terms of force attacks being thrown in their direction.
Originally posted by Nai
Team 1. Because all of the referenced quotes are either coming from characters and are, thus, questionable or - for the newer stuff - don't even acknowledge the existance of Vitiate. Or both. Means none of them can be used to prove anything.
All of history acknowledges Vitiate. So does the Darth Plagueis novel, and the Legends Epic Collection.
So we go back to the realm of feats, where Vitiate makes Sidious and Plagueis look like cheap pseudo-Sith in both combat related feats and esoteric powers / knowledge, thanks to him being, you know, a force prodigy who absorbed the power of 8,000 Sith Lord and then took a millenium to practice his skills and exercise his power.
Care to elaborate? Vitiate having 8000 Sith inside him and a longer lifespan than Sidious haven't made his feats superior - at all.
And while I doubt that Vitiate would solo this, unless he attempts some mindrape on Sidious and Plagueis, those two would still go down, mainly through a lack of variety in terms of offensive force powers against two opponents who can tank quite a lot in terms of force attacks being thrown in their direction.
Based on what can Vitiate mindrape these two? And how does a lack of variety (which they don't lack) correlate into them losing, when they're simply more powerful? And Palpatine can tank infinitely more than anyone here.
Nai's dismissing of the quotes is predicated on the idea that the out-of-universe publication date matters to the point where a quote literally doesn't count if it describes something to which new information was added (even if the new information doesn't contradict the old). This sort of breaks suspension of disbelief and renders a continuous universe that we can argue from very difficult to form.
I think in a situation like that, coming closest to the truth would be accepting that the authorial intention regarding the more recent information matters more than what the older source was meant to cover (assuming that one doesn't out-canon the other). So, take Plagueis vs novel Vitiate for an example: questioning whether Drew intended to keep Vitiate within "Plagueis > all the sith who came before" scaling or not rather than simply dismissing the older source + comparison analysis' of both characters' showings would reveal how powerful these characters are, imo. I can see why this might not be practical for debating though, since authorial intent could be left to speculation by the author, which would turn the whole debate (that concerns said author's novel) into a discussion held in a shitty literature class.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you're referring to Vitiate, he needed a galactic war, a thousand years of prep, a nexus, and then the collective energies of galactic civilization to try to pull that off. Sidious and Plagueis just meditated for a while, and sure, maybe they took advantage of some corruption or something.BTW, Sidious in Dark Empire was basically stated to be capable of doing that too, but he didn't need a galactic war.
I'll be seeing to this farce soon enough.
I think he means:
"There's something in the Force that I've never felt before. It exists nowhere and everywhere at once. Writhing, growing. I think I sense this "growth" because I'm tied to it somehow, maybe by association to Darth Arkous. I think… I think the Empire's in terrible danger."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"If I'm wrong, it means my instincts are now deeply flawed. Considering the strange disturbance I sense that continues to pervade the Force, I worry that these concerns are merely the figments of a deranged mind."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"The Force moves through the Emperor's Hand in a manner that few others experience. For us, the Force is an intricate tapestry woven into our very essence. That tapestry has become flawed. I speak of a persistent disturbance. A cyst, dense and tangled and unpleasant. It began small and nearly imperceptible but has been growing ever larger... the source of this basal disturbance is of the gravest concern to us..."
―The Emperor's Hand (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"The Force roils and convulses like never before. I reached out to study its peculiar activity, and in turn it showed me what is to come. You stand on a moon, defiantly, before one who is not one. You do not stand alone, but you fail all the same."
―Spindrall (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"No. They weren't in charge. The disturbance in the Force, I still feel it. It's... arrived."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)