Vitiate/Revan vs. Sidious/Plagueis

Heh, she actually says one hundred:

"Didn't they suspect a trap?"

"Perhaps." Nyriss shrugged. "Some refused to answer his call. But many more came. After all, what could one man do against a hundred Sith Lords?

"I cannot guarantee the truth of this story", Nyriss admitted. Those who witnessed the events no longer live to verify them. But if you had ever met the Emperor in person, you would not be so hesitant to accept the tale as fact."

Nai, I'll respond sometime in the near future.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's Nyriss' claim, which isn't verified.

It isn't verified? So you are assuming that, somehow, Scourge and virtually every other character in the "Revan"-novel has never heared about Nathema by accident? This when, essentially, the Sith that "gave their life" there should be the heroes of the Sith Empire, given they "saved" it from destruction? That doesn't make much sense.

According to Nyriss, there were only two hundred Sith Lords on Nathema, IIRC, nowhere near the 8000 suggested by the TOR: Encyclopedia.

Actually, she just mentions a number once, when describing the thoughts of those Sith:

"Some refused to answer his call. But many more came. After all, what could one man do against a hundred Sith Lords?" - Darth Nyriss, SW:ToR - Revan, Chapter 15.

This seems more like a figure of speech than a actual count, provided that even hundred Sith Lords wouldn't have arrived on the planet at the same time. Those guys, after all, don't thrust eachother.

And even then, it would still mean that Vitiate dominated the minds of at least 100 Sith Lords at the same time, while preparing the ritual to drain the entire planet. Because we are still dealing with the fact that Sith aren't exactly known to be selfless creatures that would sacrifice themselves for the "greater good" of the Empire. A point that, as of yet, nobody has cared to take into consideration.

Either pick Nyriss' account and take it to be flawed, or refer to the Encyclopedia, but not both. You can't have two bites of the cherry.

What a great way of handling "historical" sources. Usually, one would read them and then try to destill the truth out of them with some critical thinking. I'm rather certain that the number of 8,000 Sith Lords is exeggerated, given the structure of the Sith Empire as we can see in the "Golden Age of the Sith" / "Fall of the Sith Empire" comics. If I remember correctly, there were sources numbering the "Sith Lords" closer to "dozens" than "hundreds", provided that each of them ruled at least one planet, with the Ancient Sith Empire controlling just a few hundred worlds.

The 8,000 number appears to be construed from the "present" perspective of the SW universe in SW:ToR, where you have 10,000 Jedi Knights which should be equally numbered with the Sith forces. That, of course, would support my idea that the representation of the story in the SWTORE is following Vitiate's cover-up-story rather than telling the truth.

Which would suprise nobody that actually cared to read the author's note at the beginning of the book:

"Written entirely in-universe, this book uncovers secrets only hinted at in the game, divulges never-before-revealed traits and histories of major characters, and details the high-flying adventures and damatic stories that play out during the conflict between the Republic and the Empire." - Ian Ryan: "Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia", p. 6.

D'uh.
So. Essentially, you're trusting a random storyteller (in-universe source for the SWTORE) more than Darth Nyriss. Is that because that random storyteller is even 300 years farther away from the event in question, or because he serves a whitewashed version of the tale that, while entirely illogical (see above) suits your opinion better. One can only marvel your (and Beniboyblings) thoughts here.

Darth Nyriss is the random storyteller here lmao, the SWTORE is written by the standard omniscient "historian".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Darth Nyriss is the random storyteller here lmao, the SWTORE is written by the standard omniscient "historian".

1)
What part of "in-universe" was it you didn't understand exactly?

2)
There is no "true omniscient" storyteller in SW literature.

3)
Is that the same "omniscient historian" who can't explain the darkness of the Nightmare Lands on Voss and hence discribes it as "mysterious force"(see p.337)?

The same "omniscient" historian, who writes sentences like:
"Recent reports, however, suggest that the Empire may have found the Dread Masters and is seeking a way to free them." (p.149)

Emphasis mine.
Yeah. "Omniscient". Lmao.

@Nai - The novel outright states that Scourge had never heard of the story before, and that few have. The idea is that it was kept secret from nearly everyone.

Regardless, for all of your ranting, you failed to prove that Nyriss is a more accurate or reliable source than the TOR Encyclopedia.

Also, yes, there are omniscient storytellers - TCSWE's preface states that it's told from the perspective of an omniscient committee of historians.

Even if we consider Valkorion close enough to Sidious, or (LMAO) slightly above him, Revan is significantly inferior to Yoda.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Nai - The novel outright states that Scourge had never heard of the story before, and that few have. The idea is that it was kept secret from nearly everyone.

Thanks for dodging the point entirely.
Why would one cover up a story where 8,000 Sith Lords unite their power and sacrifice their lives for the good of the Sith Empire, leaving Vitiate as some sort of "saviour" character, who convinced them to do so and is now left with their power to command. Qui bono?
Releasing that story would make those Sith instant heroes, with Vitiate emerging as the pretty much untouchable ruler of the Sith, who managed to do the impossible (making Sith Lords work together and sacrificing themselves for a greater good). The story wasn't told, because it stinks, as any critical reader would instantly notice. So, maybe I'm merely adressing the wrong person.

Regardless, for all of your ranting, you failed to prove that Nyriss is a more accurate or reliable source than the TOR Encyclopedia.

You mean much as opposition has failed to "prove" that the Encyclopedia is more reliable than Nyriss? This is a matter of interpretation and belief. I've told mine and gave reasons for it, attempting to create a synthesis from both sources. Wether you find my ideas and reasons convincing or not is, frankly, not my problem. Neither is your idea of "literature analysis", which appears to be picking the source that fits your opinion best and stick with it. There might be some people that view that as confirmation bias, but who cares?

Not that it even matters. Either Vitiate can mind dominate 100+ Sith Lords at the same time, while preparing a complex ritual, suggesting that he can do the same to pretty much anybody else. Or he merely convinced them. In both instances, he ends up with the combined raw power wielded by either a hundred or several thousand Sith Lords (and the entirety living force of Nathema's population, flora and fauna). How does anybody else compare to that exactly? So Vitiate either mindrapes or steamrolls his opponents. The result is pretty much the same at the end.

Also, yes, there are omniscient storytellers - TCSWE's preface states that it's told from the perspective of an omniscient committee of historians.

Yeah...

"Like the first encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history. Since that history now extends to a time far before the events shown in George Lucas's six-movie saga, and to a time more than a century after, our vantage point is a period perhaps 150 years after the Battle of Yavin. Most entries, therefore, are in the past tense. In a galaxy where entire planets and billions of sentient beings can be-and frequently are-totally wiped out in a flash, nothing is safe and few things are certain." - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia - Volume I, p. ix.

Emphasis mine.
Labeling that "omniscience" an "in-fantasy conceit" and closing the paragraph with "few things are certain" somehow doesn't torpede the idea, that we're dealing with a truely omniscient narrative authority here. 🙄 Maybe you want to settle your long-lasting feud with reading comprehension, literature analysis and logic before you try to argue with me.

Originally posted by Nai
Context? Reference frame? Literature Analysis 101?
"The Empire Volume 1" is a collection of comics that were released in 2006, long before SW:ToR. So how would a source like that factor Vitiate in exactly?

That statement is from 2015. It was not in any of the original comics, and was made specifically for the “opening crawl”. So it factors in Vitiate.

Sidious > Vitiate

"Darth Plagueis" is entirely narrated from the point of view of its main character. So, essentially, Plagueis thinks of himself as > all, which doesn’t make it true. As a matter of fact, neither him nor Sidious, despite putting a lot of effort into that task, was ever capable of becoming immortal the way Vitiate did. Nor were they capable of granting immortality to others (as Vitiate did with Scourge).

The statement I provided is from the back cover of the novel. It’s not Plagueis’ opinion; it’s an objective declaration.

Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate

Second: While I agree, that characters aren't reliable sources per se, I don't see anything there to dismiss Nyriss account on the tale. Again, I can merely point to the "context" of the source material you are dealing with. And in the case you're trying to make, your omission of crucial details of the storytelling is quite laughable:

"The Emperor erased Nathema from the history books and the astrogation charts to hide all evidence of his crimes." – Darth Nyriss, Revan: Star Wars (The Old Republic), Chapter 12.

So Vitiate was actively manipulating information regarding Nathema.

Thanks for giving me even further incentive to dismiss the tale. And it seems I'm not the only one omitting “crucial details of storytelling”, as has been noticed by fellow users here:

“I cannot guarantee the truth of this story", Nyriss admitted. “Those who witnessed the events no longer live to verify them. But if you had ever met the Emperor in person, you would not be so hesitant to accept the tale as fact.”

-Darth Nyriss, The Old Republic: Revan

Quite the hypocrite, aren’t you?

And the other accounts of the story don't exactly disagree with Nyriss. Much like yourself, they just leave information out. Nyriss also happily states that the Sith Lord agreed to participate in the ritual and came to Nathema. But once they joined in, Vitiate destroyed them:

"He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them.” – Darth Nyriss: Revan: Star Wars (The Old Republic), Chapter 15.

So that is where Nyriss provides information that differs from two other sources.

No, she doesn’t state that at all:

”Lord Vitiate played upon these fears, convincing those who answered his call to set aside their suspicions of him and of one another to join in a single glorious cause.”

Nowhere does she say they had already agreed to the ritual, or that they even had any knowledge of it, only some "single glorious cause" which is unspecified. And apparently to you, there’s no contradiction between willingly agreeing to do something and being forced to do something:

"He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted”

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

Totally the same. Lmao.

Seriously? The texts in the Encyclopedia and the Codex could very well follow the – manipulated – accounts that Vitiate gave of the story ("The Ritual of Nathema is celebrated among Imperial scholars as a rare and amazing coming together of Sith for the good of the Empire."😉, which could have been a result of the events depicted in the Revan novel.

And Nyriss’ doesn’t? Lol.

But that account doesn’t appear reasonable anyway: No Sith would sacrifice himself for a "greater good" and had those Sith Lords given their lives, one would expect some sort of memory site on the planet to remind the people of the Empire of their sacrifice. Instead the planet has been hidden away by Vitiate (according to Nyriss) but is very clearly not part of the "common knowledge" among Imperial population – at least not at the time of the Revan novel.

Um, almost the entire Banite line willingly gave their lives in service to something greater than them.

But that’s beside the point. It doesn’t matter if one story makes sense to you and another doesn’t. You can create all sorts of validations and explanations for why Nyriss’ tale is the truth and the other’s are false, but none of that matters, because you aren’t an authority on canon. Until someone presents a quote from an omniscient source, I’m sticking with the fact that there’s no proof that Vitiate dominated a single Sith Lord on Nathema.

Since the link doesn't work, I can’t comment on the quote directly. But from the link "20080523", it is clear, that you’re quoting a version of the entry that dates to 2008, long before any information about the actual "balance shift" became available. As the Plagueis novel pretty much makes clear that the shift that Sidious and Plagueis has caused, would be senseable immediately for all Force users, that notion above is clearly retconned.

And the Plagueis novel also makes it clear Sidious unbalanced the Force by himself after Plagueis’ death with his own power. And then there’s also the fact that in AotC, Yoda uses a dark side version of Force Sight, and the Force is still as clouded as before. An unbalance toward the dark side obviously couldn’t have clouded the vision of a darksider:

YODA: Masking the future, is this disturbance in the Force.

MACE WINDU: The propecy is coming true, the Dark Side is growing.

YODA: And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the Dark Side can we see.

...

OBI-WAN: Has Master Yoda gained any insight into whether or not this war will come about?

MACE WINDU: Probing the Dark Side is a dangerous process. He could be in seclusion for days... May the force be with you.

...

INT. JEDI TEMPLE, YODA'S QUARTERS - LATE AFTERNOON: YODA sits with his eyes closed, meditating. Silence.

-Attack of the Clones script

Sidious manually clouded the Force vision of the Jedi. There’s no contradiction, no retcon. He’s a better telepath than Vitiate.

That aside, SW:ToR also makes clear, that Vitiate would have succeded with his plan to consume the entire Star Wars Galaxy, which I consider a little more impressive than the manipulations of Sidious and Plagueis.

Oh yes, requiring centuries to do something that you didn’t accomplish with your own power is obviously more impressive than requiring months to do something that was ultimately accomplished with your own strength. 🙄

I’d thought, that it was rather clear that I was referring to force mastery…

I don’t care what you were referring to. All that matters is that the showing cannot be used in combat, and therefore is irrelevant.

Nice. Too bad you totally ruined your own argument with the link to the comic you posted:

"This planet is a dark side conduit. A call to the force summons an exponential flood. But the Force demands balance. In order to give energy it must take energy."

Emphasis mine. So Sidious himself links that effect to the nature of the planet and not to his own power and Force mastery.

You may call me dumb for this but how exactly did you infer that anyone who steps on the planet suddenly goes into a trance and is forced to work for the Empire while having their life force sapped to fuel someone thousands of light years away as not Sidious’ work, simply based on the fact that the planet is a dark side nexus and the word “exponential”?

Regardless, you’re wrong:

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

-The New Essential Guide to Characters

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.

-Dark Side Sourcebook

The above sources state Sidious and his Adepts personally drained and dominated them. Even if you still somehow believe some weird explanation about it being “the nature of the planet”, it is also stated that Sidious personally made the planet into a dark side nexus, with his own power. It was a completely normal planet before that.

Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy.

-Byss and the Deep Core

Sidious is a far better telepath, and master of Illusion and Drain powers than Vitiate.

I fail to understand how one sorts in the members of the Dark Council as "fodder". Those are, last time I checked, the most powerful Sith present in the Sith Empire who clawed their way up to the top, most likely leaving a nice numbers of corpses of the less capable people in their wake. Those people are no push-over. Hence your comparison is pretty stupid.

By “fodder”, I meant people who can be killed very easily. And Vitiate did, so they are fodder to him. They may not be fodder for someone else, but they’re fodder to Vitiate. Get it?

And you failed to address my point, so it still stands.

I don’t know why "maybe they were surprised by the attack" is still a thing when discussing force users? Those people are capable of precognition and even with defense summoned ad hoc the usually do survive attacks up to a certain level of magnitude. Force users are pretty hard to kill as virtually every available source – starting with the movies – makes pretty damn clear. And those were, just to emphasize it again – not your average Sith Lords, but the members of the Dark Council. And still Vitiate killed them with a single force attack. And I fail to see how the fact, that he wasn’t even physically present for that makes that feat less impressive for him. So he can wipe out a collective of a dozen powerful Sith Lords from a remote location? I bet Sidious would have liked to have that kind of ability when he needed to deal with the Jedi Council.

Precognition fails on a consistent basis across all mediums of Star Wars. Just like it failed here. If the Dark Councillors had expected an attack they would have prepared for it somehow. It is a known fact that they thought Vitiate was oblivious to their plot, so they couldn’t have known he would attack them.

And no, it does not take that much effort to break the defences of an unprepared Force user. Jedi and Sith have managed to break the passive defences of vastly more powerful Force users (Shadow Guard vs Galen Marek; Vader vs Kanan and Ezra; Vader vs Sidious; Cade vs Karness Muur etc.) It would literally take Vitiate zero effort to break the passive defences of those less powerful than him.

Please tell me where in my post I stated that Vitiate being able to kill them while not there is a negative for him. Tell me.

And the fact that Vitiate possesses an ability like that and Sidious doesn’t is about as relevant as last year’s snow, when they’re fighting 1v1, and not against any big group.

You probably don't see what this has to do with combat, because I was talking about force knowledge and mastery, both disciplines in which Valkorion / Vitiate clearly eclipses the likes of Sidious and Plagueis, who had to go by the scraps of what the Ancient Sith (read: Vitiate’s generation of Sith Lords) left behind in terms of Dark Side lore.

And your attempt to counter my argument still doesn't make sense. Neither Sidious or Plagueis were even close to archiving what Vitiate did in terms of personal "immortality" and had Vitiate continued to do what he did in his Valkorion incarnation he just would have lived forever. That he, apparently, choose not to continue on this path has nothing to do with his ability to do so. Which would still overshadow the feeble attempts of Plagueis and Sidious to archive the same, which was the reason to bring that up in the first place…

So you admit this has nothing to do with combat? It’s irrelevant, then. Moving on.

Nope. Sidious didn't unbalance the Force with his own power. Your crude interpretation of Sidious thoughts, which are packed with insecurities, doesn't change that. And Vitiate was essentially about to end the Force in the Star Wars Galaxy by absorbing all energy into himself. Which, sorry, still tops everything Sidious has ever done.

Didn’t you just previously use Plagueis’ thoughts on the unbalancing as evidence against my point? Either this is a double standard, or you have some legitimate evidence as to why Sidious’ thoughts are unreliable. I’ll leave you to explain yourself in your next post.

And again you are using a ritual as an argument. Or is this about Force mastery and knowledge, again? If so, then it’s irrelevant.

You may want to read the corresponding text instead of blaming me for the fact, that it doesn’t support your views:

"No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended." – Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.

Emphasis mine. They didn't meet any direct resistance from the Force. The Force merely shifted, without putting up any kind of resistance. Fact.

Well, obviously, after it had yielded. I repeat: if the Force didn’t try to resist, then why did it take them months to unbalance it?

Pardon me. Are you, somehow, mentally retarded?

Oh yes, I am obviously mentally retarded. Because anyone who disagrees with the great Nai and his interpretations is obviously retarded.
🙄

The Force is an omnipotent and omnipresent energy field. You can't force it to do anything. You can convince[I]. Or, and that is what Plagueis and Sidious probably did, you can delude yourself with the notion that the Force is acting according to your will, when you are merely a pawn acting according to the will of the Force. Why did the Force chose Anakin as an option, contrary to what Plagueis and Sidious did actually expect:

[I]"Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts." – Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.

Emphasis mine. The Force, had it been willing to do so, could just have killed them at any given point in time – even following the very own thoughts of the Sith, represented here. Instead, it chose to take a detour and send Anakin in to bring balance. And again: Not as the "perfect Jedi", trained from infancy on, an avatar of Light, but precisely the way that Anakin came to be – with dire consequences for the Jedi Order first and for the Sith later. This was so obviously the plan of the Force, that I seriously wonder how people still don’t get it.

Based on what can’t you force it to do anything? Because you say so? Because, to quote you, “it doesn’t support your views”?

So what you are suggesting here is that Plagueis and Sidious are literal idiots, if they knew what the Force might do to them, yet still went ahead with their plans.

“Anticipate” has other meanings than “expect”, or “imagine”; it can also mean that you “take action in preparation for something that you think will happen”:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/anticipate

Sidious and Plagueis prevented their deaths by mentally contending with the Force, or as Plagueis puts it “waged etheric war”, and ultimately overthrew God, proving they were beyond its power to kill, forcing it to rely on indirect means of restoring balance.

For more information, you should check out these posts by fellow user ILS. He explained it far more beautifully and eloquently than I ever could:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15995955#post15995955

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15996605#post15996605

Sidious and Plagueis have far more willpower than Vitiate.

I don’t get what Revan’s affiliation in the Force has to do with Vitiate's ability to just dominate his mind. Or that of Malak, the Hero of Tython, the entire Jedi Master strike team accompanying the latter or the citizens of Ziost (along the Jedi special task force on the planet) for that matter. And Lana has not only prepared her mental defenses specifically to resist Vitiate, but was also dealing with a discorporate, freshly resurrected version of him, that would most certainly be less powerful than himself in the flesh.

Apparently you missed keywords in my post: “caught off-guard”. Revan being on the verge of the dark side already wasn’t the only reason why he was dominated, which is noted to be a key factor in Vitiate’s success:

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor’s loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

-The Old Republic Encyclopedia

When he tried again, this time with Revan expecting it, he failed.
The Hero of Tython, Tol Braga and co., and the people of Ziost simply did not have enough willpower to resist Vitiate. Revan did, but again, he was already on the verge of the dark side, and utterly caught off-guard, so he was easy prey for Vitiate.

Vitiate was weakened on Ziost, true, but Ziost is also a dark side nexus, which amped him, so it balances out.

Again: What "average Sith Lord" are you even talking about? Lana? She is neither "average", nor was she confronting Vitiate in his flesh, who casually overpowered the minds of people far more powerful than Lana.

Whether Lana is “average” or not is debatable; my description for her was simply in comparison to Sheev Palpatine, who is incomprehensibly more powerful than she is.

And what “far more powerful” people that he has dominated without positive circumstances for him are you referring to, exactly?

But once again you haven’t even addressed my point, which was that if Lana could resist Vitiate with prep, and if 17-year-old Sheev could resist Plagueis with no prep, then a fully trained Sidious could obviously resist Vitiate (whose willpower is eclipsed by that of Plagueis).

The fact that, contrary to Vitiate, he never did that to another powerful Force user? Thanks for playing, chump.

He has mentally intruded the mind of a Force user more powerful than Vitiate against their will:

"Master Yoda..." He steepled his fingers. "Are you quite certain young Anakin is ready for such a task?"

"Yes," said Yoda flatly.

And that was a lie. Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known. He was worried...and backed into a corner.

-Clone Wars: Wild Space

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9UJruYr5f4&t=1m16s

Neither instance was outright “mindrape” but the Force user in question also happens to be far more powerful than Vitiate, so it balances out.

Now, do you have some other rebuttals other than a blatant argument from ignorance?

Yeah. Because "influencing" a single decision of an individual is, somehow, compareable to using individuals like puppets…

And Revan is obviously comparable to Sidious... 🙄

It was merely proof that Vitiate has been mentally influenced before and that he is not immune.

Lmao.

Aside from your rather hilarious interpretations of Star Wars canon with a heavy bias for Sidious, let me just point to the fact, that Vitiate was running the Sith Empire while running Zakuul at the same time as Valkorion. So his "game version" rules two Empires with an iron fist at the same time, with two separate host bodies to control, controls hundreds of children throughout the Galaxy, communicates with the "Hand" and keeps Vaylin's powers in check mentally. That all at the same time. Sidious doesn't even register next to Vitiate when it comes to mind-controlling powers and telepathic abilities.

Bias? Oh yes, I am both mentally retarded and biased for disagreeing with you, great Nai. Everyone who disagrees with you obviously is.

Vitiate maintained a mental link with his children through which he knew what they were doing and could take control of them when the situation called for it; he did not actively control them all at the same time 24/7. There’s a massive difference. Having a mental link is not a feat.

The only feat worth mentioning is him suppressing Vaylin, which doesn’t compare to suppressing 10000 Jedi in the slightest.

I fail to see how bending the energy beam, that is a lightsaber blade, is a testament to power of Sidious’ lightning. Especially in the context of arguing the most powerful ToR character, when far lesser beings then him have been seen to completely absorb the energy of a lightsaber blade (Satele Shan) and Vitiate in his Valkorion incarnation could block lightsaber swings with his bare hands. Again: Both actions apparently beyond Sidious.

How exactly is absorbing the blade with Tutaminis the equivalent of bending it with Force lightning? That makes literally zero sense. They are completely different powers. Tutaminis also isn’t a way to measure raw Force power. There are individuals who are extremely proficient with the ability, yet would get stomped by Force users who cannot absorb lightsaber blades. Nejaa Halcyon and Shaak Ti are examples of this from the PT era, and Satele seems to be one from the OR era.

And how is it a testament to Sidious’ power? Well, when two lightsabers clash, they remain straight, the only force pushing the other backward is the arm strength of the wielder. But when a lightsaber is hit with Sidious’ lightning, it becomes distorted. Despite Mace having the arm strength to push the hilt forward, the blade bent backward (or sideways, if you go by the movie); he overwhelmed the lightsaber’s capacity to absorb energy. Or in other words, his lightning is more potent than lightsaber plasma.
And based on what is it “apparent” that blocking lightsaber blows is beyond Sidious’ capabilities?

And, contrary to Sidious lightning, Vitiate's lightning has been shown to cause heavy damage when he disintegrated T3-M4 with a quick blast, not even talking about superheating Revan’s mask in split seconds, enough to have it burn into his face, with Revan being quite capable of redirecting / absorbing lightning. By comparison, Vader looked quite well, after getting electrocuted by Sidious in RotJ, after it has been mentioned multiple times, that he was pretty weak against lightning / electricity throughout the saga.

Vitiate destroyed T3 with Telekinesis, not lightning. And until I see Revan absorbing a lightsaber blade, he is incapable of it, and Vitiate’s feat remains inferior to Sidious’.

Vader not being instantly killed by Sidious’ lightning is just a good feat for him, and aligns itself well with how he is presented in the rest of the mythos. Here he is tanking the full might of an enraged, amplified Starkiller’s lightning for a lengthy period if time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7Cr4rF_Joo&t=3m4s

Keep in mind that Starkiller, without rage amps or any other boosts, could literally atomize stormtroopers down to infinitesimal particles invisible to the human eye:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=16m20s&v=e6zIfCrWYsw

Here is Vader tanking an explosion of a kyber crystal-empowered Sith superweapon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXiwr25OU_w&t=1m25s

Keep in mind that the explosion of a kyber crystal was potent enough to utterly disintegrate a TIE fighter:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GVndPQC7LA0&t=1m44s

It should also be noted that the combined power of eight kyber crystals is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0qLzsIhUMk&t=2m6s

And yet, in neither case were Vader’s injuries life-threatening. Compare that with RotJ, where he died in a matter of minutes after being hit by Sidious’s Lightning. It should then be obvious just how potent Sidious’ Force lightning is, and I’m not seeing proof Vitiate compares. Starkiller is better than Nyriss, Vader is better than Revan, and Sidious is better than Vitiate.

I don't see, why I would accept lesser canon, clearly overwritten by the depiction of the duel in the movie. In short: That never happened. And getting his own lightning thrown back into his face by Mace Windu was enough to have his face "melt" and beg Anakin for help in RotS. So his lightning being harmless to him is pretty much contradicted by on-screen evidence.

Where exactly do you see the scene being overwritten? By what? When we cut away from Yoda and Sidious to Vader and Obi-Wan, the former were clashing lightsabers on the Chancellor’s podium. Yet when we come back, Sidious has lost his lightsaber and is levitating on the upper senate pods. There’s an entire portion of the duel that was cut out. The junior novelization fills that void. Even the movie’s script depicts events similarly to the junior novel, validating it further. It doesn’t contradict the movie; it supplements it.

Palpatine’s face didn’t “melt”; it just broke the mask, revealing the true face of Darth Sidious:

"Always two there are"—not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world.

-The Complete Visual Dictionary

Sidious wasn’t harmed in any way, so the junior novel doesn’t contradict the movie. Sidious can tank his Force lightning like nothing, and as his lightning is more powerful than Vitiate’s, he’ll be walking through the latter’s feeble attempts to kill him.

I fail to see how Yoda redirecting Sidious lightning does make the lightning more powerful. Yoda doesn't add any kind of power to the attack. And there is also the fact, that Sidious is never hit by that lightning. The energy simply keeps going back and forth between the two opponents until it – finally – explodes. With that explosion not being that impressive, when we consider the fact, that it represents the energy Sidious was capable of putting out over an extended amount of time (at least several seconds). Especially not when compared to the damage Vitiate does with his attacks.

Fair enough on the Yoda part. But as you said, the explosion is basically Sidious’ energy from an extended period of time gathered into a single attack. I don’t understand how that’s somehow not impressive, though, given that it’s obviously more powerful than Sidious’ standard burst of Force lightning. Yet he still tanked it without a scratch. Vitiate cannot kill Sidious.

I fail to see where you already addressed this. And, apparently, you still fail to see the point.

In order to influence the Force, you would need to use the Force. So, obviously, when the Force doesn’t "allow" you to use it, you face some kind of problem. Should the Force, as a binding element of all life, decide to counteract against your plans, you’re just toast, because it can – as Sidious and Plagueis assumed – just end you on the spot.

So acting against the will of the Force is impossible, unless the Force allows it. If the Force allows it, it cannot totally be against its will. But this is essentially discussing some metaphysical energy field and has been done for our world quite enough with God as an entity (who cannot be all-good and all-powerful and let bad stuff happen, as was argued by some). The same goes for the Force. It doesn’t immediately counteract for whatever reason, despite being able to do so, but decides to deal with the thread by sending Anakin – in the very specific way it did.

But the arrival of Anakin is already testament to the fact that Sidious and Plagueis did never manage to bend the Force to their will. While causing a shift in the Force, the Force still acts against them. And finally wins.

This is all just your head canon. I mean, is any of that actually stated anywhere in the source material?

The Sith did not overpower the Force using the Force, like you suggest, but with their minds. Sidious’ – and presumably Plagueis’ since he was part of the unbalancing, although he has no additional feats to confirm this – will transcends the use of the Force. In DE, when he was cut off from the Force by the Skywalker twins, he was consumed by his Force Storm, and essentially died as a non-Force sensitive, having no way to use Force, and no way to become a spirit. In EE, Sidious notes that it was the spirits if the ancient Sith who helped him back to the physical realm. This was retconned in TCSWE, stating that:

Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

And TCSWE is written by historians who are completely omniscient, meaning their word has just as much weight as Sidious’ own, if not more. That is why it can be treated as a retcon.

Sidious’ will is beyond that of the Force. He did not need the Force to return to the physical realm, and his will alongside that of Plagueis’ also overpowered the Force itself. Vitiate stands no chance.

And Anakin Skywalker is does not counter my point. The Force created him before Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced it.

And that aside: The quote you've brought there does obviously compare force-sensitive beings to those who aren't force-sensitive. Nothing more. The conclusion you're trying to draw from there is simply ridiculous. And factually wrong anyway: The Force has the means to reestablish balance itself. Which was, last time I checked, the entire story of Star Wars Episode I to VI.

I do not see how this proves me wrong. Anakin was created because the Force could not restore balance any other way.

---

To summarize, Sidious is better than Vitiate in every aspect of combative Force powers and lightsaber combat, and literally unkillable to the latter. Sidious can use Force lightning to fry him, Drain Life to fuel himself, or Telepathy to dominate Vitiate.

Nice post Az.

This debate is shaping up to be hella entertaining.

Azronger, how many Revans could Sidious take at once in your opinion?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nice post Az.

This debate is shaping up to be hella entertaining.

Are you being genuine here?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Azronger, how many Revans could Sidious take at once in your opinion?

Quite a lot, but I'm not sure on the exact amount. I'll solidify my ranking of Revan once the debate between Ell and Ant has concluded. Currently I have him above Vader as an overall combatant, but below him as a tank.

Of course.

I don't really see eye-to-eye with either you or Nai really, but that doesn't stop you guys from being good debaters.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Of course.

I don't really see eye-to-eye with either you or Nai really, but that doesn't stop you guys from being good debaters.

Well, thanks, then.

Sorry. I had to attend a conference and didn't have much time for this place. Here is my reply:

That statement is from 2015. It was not in any of the original comics, and was made specifically for the “opening crawl”. So it factors in Vitiate.

Sidious > Vitiate

Nope.

I find it rather awkward, that people don’t get, what effects the separation between (Disney) „Canon“ and „Legends“ means for the Star Wars Expanded Universe. There is no department checking the consistency of the “Legends” publications any longer, because they are, essentially, non-canon anyways. As such, they don’t operate within the same reference frame any longer, meaning that they are solely dependent on themselves and just reference themselves.

Now why would the “opening crawl” of a compilation of comics from 2006 take Vitiate into consideration when judging the relative status of Sidious among the Sith Lords? From a 2006 perspective it doesn’t make sense, because Vitiate didn’t exist yet. From a 2015 perspective it doesn’t make sense, because Vitiate isn’t “canon” any longer. Which means that the only reference frame which is to be assumed for the source is the new (Disney) canon: Movies, TV Shows, new material, end of story. And in those, Sidious – as of now – is pretty much the undisputed “most powerful Sith”, because all other Sith in the current canon are his own apprentices.

The statement I provided is from the back cover of the novel. It’s not Plagueis’ opinion; it’s an objective declaration.

Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate

The back cover of the novel does only refer to the content of the novel and not the overall “canon” of the Star Wars universe, in which factual evidence contradicts the claim the back cover makes, since Vitiate/Valkorion is far beyond both Sidious and Plagueis, when it comes to “power over life and death”, demonstrated by his actions.

That aside: According to James Luceno, Plagueis would have defeated his apprentice in a straight fight. So if you want to use authorial intent, it is Plagueis > Sidious.

Thanks for giving me even further incentive to dismiss the tale. And it seems I'm not the only one omitting “crucial details of storytelling”, as has been noticed by fellow users here:

“I cannot guarantee the truth of this story", Nyriss admitted. “Those who witnessed the events no longer live to verify them. But if you had ever met the Emperor in person, you would not be so hesitant to accept the tale as fact.”

-Darth Nyriss, The Old Republic: Revan

Quite the hypocrite, aren’t you?

I wonder how I’m a hypocrite, when I dismissed the reliability of character quotes instantly. You have still dodged the point, though: Why would somebody cover up the act of hundreds / thousands of Sith giving their lives for the best of the Empire voluntarily?

No, she doesn’t state that at all:

”Lord Vitiate played upon these fears, convincing those who answered his call to set aside their suspicions of him and of one another to join in a single glorious cause.”

Nowhere does she say they had already agreed to the ritual, or that they even had any knowledge of it, only some "single glorious cause" which is unspecified.

Reading comprehension fail much?

”He invited them to participate in a ritual to unlock the full potential of the dark side; he promised they would unleash power beyond anything they had ever witnessed or imagined.”

This is, literally, one paragraph above the quote you just posted.

And apparently to you, there’s no contradiction between willingly agreeing to do something and being forced to do something:

"He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted”

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

Totally the same. Lmao.

As Nyriss, contrary to your false claims, makes clear that Vitiate convinced them to join him in a ritual, that part is still present in both versions of the tale. The difference is that the Encyclopedia leaves the mindraping part out. So the part, that would be a good reason to hide that story and the entire planet away where I still fail to see a reason for that in the Encyclopedia version of the tale. A fact that has still not been answered.

And Nyriss’ doesn’t? Lol.

Eh. She doesn’t where it actually matters. She accuses Vitiate of mindraping and then draining the Sith Lords, rather then them giving their lives willingly. And that makes much more sense for a reason to cover Nathema up and hide it away, then what the Encyclopedia (or “official version”) says.

Um, almost the entire Banite line willingly gave their lives in service to something greater than them.

What the hell?

Not a single Sith “gave his live willingly”. They were killed by their apprentices, yes. They didn’t throw their lives away to keep the Sith alive. They gathered personal power and longed for immortality, until they were put into their graves.

But that’s beside the point. It doesn’t matter if one story makes sense to you and another doesn’t. You can create all sorts of validations and explanations for why Nyriss’ tale is the truth and the other’s are false, but none of that matters, because you aren’t an authority on canon. Until someone presents a quote from an omniscient source, I’m sticking with the fact that there’s no proof that Vitiate dominated a single Sith Lord on Nathema.

The question is not whether a story makes sense to me but which of two version of a story makes sense at all. And since you don’t have any argument to offer, why the Encyclopedia is to be trusted over Nyriss, while I have explained while Nyriss is to be trusted above the Encyclopedia, you’re on the losing side here. But please. Stick to your entirely senseless opinion and be happy.

And the Plagueis novel also makes it clear Sidious unbalanced the Force by himself after Plagueis’ death with his own power.

That is still just your interpretation of Sidious’ own thoughts. So please stop stating it, as if it were a fact, because it – sorry to tell you – is not.

And then there’s also the fact that in AotC, Yoda uses a dark side version of Force Sight, and the Force is still as clouded as before. An unbalance toward the dark side obviously couldn’t have clouded the vision of a darksider:

Holy mother of reading comprehension fails. Did you just present an interpretation of the stuff following as Yoda using the Dark Side. Seriously? He is trying to see through the clouding of the Dark Side which is what Mace Windu views as dangerous. He does not use a Dark Side version of a force power. Good god, dude. Learn how to read and utilize logic.

Oh yes, requiring centuries to do something that you didn’t accomplish with your own power is obviously more impressive than requiring months to do something that was ultimately accomplished with your own strength.

How does time being needed or the source of power matter here? Going by your logic, nothing that either Sidious or Plagueis did after the unbalancing of the Force is impressive, because they were aided by the unbalanced Force supporting Dark Siders. Nothing Sidious did post RotS is impressive, because he had Byss as additional power source. WTF?

The fact is, that Vitiate essentially found a way to become immortal (eclipsing the attempts of Sidious and Vitiate to do the same), was about to drain the entire Galaxy (beyond unbalancing the Force a bit) and was “eating planets” within, what, hours, where Sidious could just slowly drain some power from a planetary population.

You may call me dumb for this but how exactly did you infer that anyone who steps on the planet suddenly goes into a trance and is forced to work for the Empire while having their life force sapped to fuel someone thousands of light years away as not Sidious’ work, simply based on the fact that the planet is a dark side nexus and the word “exponential”?

I could counter the stuff point by point again, but it is simply useless: What Vitiate did on Nathema and later Ziost is far more impressive than what Sidious did with Byss. Because draining entire worlds dry, absorbing the power, in the matter of days is still more impressive slowly feeding on some energy from the population of a planet. And utilizing people as puppets is also more impressive than luring them somewhere or making them stay somewhere.

By “fodder”, I meant people who can be killed very easily. And Vitiate did, so they are fodder to him. They may not be fodder for someone else, but they’re fodder to Vitiate. Get it?

And you failed to address my point, so it still stands.

The point is that they can’t be killed very easily and Vitiate still did do the job, while not even being present physically, which implies that he is powerful enough to get rid of a single target in direct confrontation, regardless of who the target is. And since your “point” is based on the attempt to talk down those Dark Council members, you don’t have any point.

In a similar fashion, I could call anybody ever defeated by Sidious "fodder" in order to talk down his abilities. Does it make sense to you to label Maul or Vader "fodder"?

Precognition fails on a consistent basis across all mediums of Star Wars. Just like it failed here. If the Dark Councillors had expected an attack they would have prepared for it somehow. It is a known fact that they thought Vitiate was oblivious to their plot, so they couldn’t have known he would attack them.

Erm. Dark Council members had to constantly expect attacks on their lives, just based on their very position:

”The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a few months, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.” – SWTORE, p.172.

So the idea of them stumbling through the capital of the Sith Empire entirely unprotected appears to be a little bit off.

And no, it does not take that much effort to break the defences of an unprepared Force user. Jedi and Sith have managed to break the passive defences of vastly more powerful Force users (Shadow Guard vs Galen Marek; Vader vs Kanan and Ezra; Vader vs Sidious; Cade vs Karness Muur etc.) It would literally take Vitiate zero effort to break the passive defences of those less powerful than him.

How many of those resulted in the instantaneous death of 12 powerful Dark Side users and were executed from a remote location? You are still dodging the main point: If Vitiate can, apparently casually, break through the force defenses of a dozen powerful individuals at once and kill them instantly what stops him from doing the same to one individual. Do you honestly think that Sidious could take down a dozen individuals like Nyriss, Marr or Thanaton at once. Because I seriously doubt it, given that he fails to overpower a single Dark Side witch like Mother Talzin.

And the fact that Vitiate possesses an ability like that and Sidious doesn’t is about as relevant as last year’s snow, when they’re fighting 1v1, and not against any big group.

🙄

As said above: The fact that he can do that against a dozen powerful Dark Siders does heavily imply, that he wouldn’t have much problem of doing the same to a single opponent. The way he pretty much casually destroys Revan once he puts his entire power to action would suggest that Sidious doesn’t stand much of a chance here.

Didn’t you just previously use Plagueis’ thoughts on the unbalancing as evidence against my point? Either this is a double standard, or you have some legitimate evidence as to why Sidious’ thoughts are unreliable. I’ll leave you to explain yourself in your next post.

Plagueis thoughts serves as the only source for what happened regarding the unbalancing.
And I’m not doubting Sidious thoughts, but your interpretation of those, given that you ignore the fact, that Sidious isn’t really confident about what he thinks and the fact that your interpretation contradicts facts.

And again you are using a ritual as an argument. Or is this about Force mastery and knowledge, again? If so, then it’s irrelevant.

Since you were utilizing the balance shifting as “pro Sidious” argument, when it also has nothing to do with combat, I was inclined to answer with the similar – but more impressive – stuff Vitiate has done.

Well, obviously, after it had yielded. I repeat: if the Force didn’t try to resist, then why did it take them months to unbalance it?

I can only repeat my question, why you are trying to argue against established facts based on nothing. The Force didn’t try to resist. That’s a fact, stated one of the two persons participating in the process. End of story. It probably took months, because the two Sith weren’t exactly knowing what they were doing, just what they were trying to archive. It’s not as if they had a “how to shift the balance of the Force manual” to follow, did they?

Based on what can’t you force it to do anything? Because you say so? Because, to quote you, “it doesn’t support your views”?

Based on logic and reason. And I don’t know, what is so hard to grasp here.
Arguing that one could use the Force to influence the Force against the will of the Force doesn’t make any sense. It’s like arguing one could slap God the face, utilizing his own hand, without him wanting that. Does that make sense to you?

So what you are suggesting here is that Plagueis and Sidious are literal idiots, if they knew what the Force might do to them, yet still went ahead with their plans.

This is not what I’m suggesting. It is, essentially, what the novel states itself. The two Sith do the job despite being aware of the risks. And yet, the Force does nothing to stop them. Under which circumstances does that make sense? As far as I am concerned, the interpretation would be, that everything happened exactly as wanted by the Force:

1)
Sidious and Plagueis were not developing the idea to unbalance the Force out of nowhere, as it does actually happen in the novel. There is no reason given for the attempt to do so, no motivation, no explanation. It’s as if the Sith just got up one day and thought, that this would be a good idea. As if some tiny voice inside their heads had whispered what they should do next – and they followed. Remember what Qui-Gon taught Anakin about listening to the Force in TPM?

2)
Motivated to do so, the two Sith do exactly what the Force has “incepted” into them: Unbalance the Force. Despite the fact, that they assume that the Force can (and will) end them at any given point in time. Seriously. Why would they do something like that?

3)
The Force offers no resistance and then “gives in”, strengthening the Sith and weakening the Jedi.

4)
The Force creates Anakin, the ultimate instrument of balance. Instead of being conceived by a woman in the Republic, where Anakin would have been found by the Jedi and have been trained (and indoctrinated) in their ways from infancy on, the Force makes sure that the boy is born into slavery, where he grows up with some kindling of darkness already within him.

5)
The Force itself via “fate” or utilizing Sidious is ensuring that Anakin moves further towards the Dark Side. Just think for a moment, how suicidal it is for Sidious, to want Anakin as his “apprentice”. Even manipulating Vader, he knows that he can’t control him forever. He outright tells Yoda, that Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of them. Despite of that, he orchestrates Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side, with some nice assistance: Did anybody ever ask, why the Tusken would capture and torture Shmi Skywalker exactly? Killing her in a raid – okay. But this? And then, in a twist of fate, Anakin arrives on the spot to witness his mother’s death. He could have saved her earlier. He probably wouldn’t have snappe the way he did, if he had arrived later. What a perfect timing that was on a galactic scale. And who could arrange that?

6)
The Force uses Anakin to first ensure the downfall of the Jedi Order and the destruction of the Sith afterwards. Balance restored.

You see: If the goal was, just to get rid of the Sith, the Force could have chosen the Jedi Path for Anakin from the beginning. It didn’t.

Apparently you missed keywords in my post: “caught off-guard”. Revan being on the verge of the dark side already wasn’t the only reason why he was dominated, which is noted to be a key factor in Vitiate’s success:

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor’s loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

-The Old Republic Encyclopedia

When he tried again, this time with Revan expecting it, he failed.
The Hero of Tython, Tol Braga and co., and the people of Ziost simply did not have enough willpower to resist Vitiate. Revan did, but again, he was already on the verge of the dark side, and utterly caught off-guard, so he was easy prey for Vitiate.