Could Obi Wan replicate Maul's showing against Sidious?

Originally posted by Kurk
Tell me, if Sidious was truly toying around, why did he allow him to land a kick on him and allow Maul be on top during the blade-lock?

On top during a bladelock? Maybe because Maul is taller and thus has superior leverage? He seems to get rid of that pesky problem rather quickly.

As for the kick, we've already discussed that. How mentally unbalanced are you to be incapable of reading through? Sidious wasn't even going all-out nor trying when Maul landed a kick; it was a move that Sheev simply didn't anticipate.

After the kick landed, and only afterwards does Sidious actually even begin to try and then he laughs at Maul and proceeds to disarm him after two seconds. Face the facts: your observational "skills" are both wrong and irrelevant, and what you arbitrarily make out as head-canon has been completely contradicted by a plethora of sources.

The only current good debater on the Maul brigade is ILS; leave the Maul hyping to him and you go polish Quanchi's boots. 👆

Maul did more than just kick Sidious though, in the initial stages of the bout Maul was in fact driving him back. And the fact that he was "barely tested" means he was tested, if only just.

I agree with ILS, the idea that Sidious toying with Maul in a blanket sense (as opposed to at the end, when the term is most pertinent) requires a strained if not disingenuous reading of the fight.

A more sense making interpretation suggests that in his fury Maul proved an unexpected challenge for Sidious, who proceeded to unleash his full might and in doing so, easily overpowered him.

Doesn't matter. The point is the only reason Sidious was even kicked was due to him toying around and not expecting Maul to perform as well, otherwise Shadow Conspiracy has him essentially blitzing Maul and TCW has him swiftly overwhelming him in a bladelock.

Did Maul perform better than the vast majority of Star Wars characters could? Sure, but he was also enraged and, quite frankly, we don't need the Sidious fight to assume Maul is better than the vast majority of SW characters.

It does matter actually, as there is a difference between conceding a hit in a lax state and being actually driven back. The former is a forgivable lapse, the latter is being challenged by your opponent over a sustained period, and brings into question the extent to which he maintained complacency.

And as far as his "rage amp" is concerned, that's something people like to bring up a lot, but tend to ignore the fact that Maul would also have been fatigued. I'm inclined to believe one mitigates the other. Whereas in the novel no mention of rage is given at all, only Maul's desperation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can tell you that indeed. Filoni claims that Sidious is enjoying himself the entire time and that Savage and Maul can't even touch him (whereas they do touch him in the real fight, implying that he held back and allowed them to do so).

No, but words like "spectacular", "brutal", "intense" etc. don't preclude a character holding back either.

Per the website, Sidious was toying with Maul after killing Savage. And we know it's not referring to the ragdolling, since Filoni claims that's the part where "Sidious goes all in and mauls Maul, so to speak".

Beni just took it to myth lord. Myth lords retort was it doesn't matter completely escaping the point and just dismissing it due to bias. Not on my watch. To be a respectable debater like myself you need to stay on point and always embrace the context of every given situation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can tell you that indeed. Filoni claims that Sidious is enjoying himself the entire time and that Savage and Maul can't even touch him (whereas they do touch him in the real fight, implying that he held back and allowed them to do so).

We seem to be going around in circles here given I've already addressed this.

Originally posted by SunRazer

Per the website, Sidious was toying with Maul after killing Savage. And we know it's not referring to the ragdolling, since Filoni claims that's the part where "Sidious goes all in and mauls Maul, so to speak".

On the contrary the 2 statements meld together quite nicely. The fact that Palpatine TK Maul's Maul only once he's had enough (as per Filoni) suggests he could have done that earlier, hence the Toying.

But none of that means he faked getting kicked or faked looking pissed while on his knees, or just generally faked the entirety of the Saber duel.

Yeah, choosing to engage Maul in a saber duel when he could have ended it with TK at any point would indeed constitute toying with him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It does matter actually, as there is a difference between conceding a hit in a lax state and being actually driven back. The former is a forgivable lapse, the latter is being challenged by your opponent over a sustained period, and brings into question the extent to which he maintained complacency.

The problem is: there was no driving back. The two traded blow after blow, fairly evenly. And obviously Sidious wasn't going all-out to begin with.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And as far as his "rage amp" is concerned, that's something people like to bring up a lot, but tend to ignore the fact that Maul would also have been fatigued. I'm inclined to believe one mitigates the other. Whereas in the novel no mention of rage is given at all, only Maul's desperation.

A rage amp is more than enough to make up for exhaustion, given a rage amp was enough for Asajj Ventress, who was injured nigh-fatally, to choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan; or for Vos to go from getting danced around by Dooku to disarming him in short order; or for Anakin from stalemating Dooku to willing him to die. A rage amp is far more concrete than simply getting tired.

And that's an appeal to ignorance, darling. Just because it isn't stated doesn't mean it isn't obvious Maul will be angry at his brother dying.

Originally posted by MythLord
The problem is: there was no driving back. The two traded blow after blow, fairly evenly. And obviously Sidious wasn't going all-out to begin with.

That's a good 7-8 seconds of Sidious being driven back, until he kicks Maul away and the momentum reverses.

A rage amp is more than enough to make up for exhaustion, given a rage amp was enough for Asajj Ventress, who was injured nigh-fatally, to choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan; or for Vos to go from getting danced around by Dooku to disarming him in short order; or for Anakin from stalemating Dooku to willing him to die. A rage amp is far more concrete than simply getting tired.

(EDIT: But nah, Ventress was nowhere near fatally injured, lmao.)

And that's an appeal to ignorance, darling. Just because it isn't stated doesn't mean it isn't obvious Maul will be angry at his brother dying.

What "fatigue" are you talking about? Maul fought assassin droids for a month or so on Hypori, lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uh.. there was?

That's a good 7-8 seconds of Sidious being driven back, until he kicks Maul away and the momentum reverses.

That's about as conclusive to the overall state of the fight as Asajj driving back Obi-Wan, or Shaak Ti driving back Galen, tbh. Sidious stepping back a bit doesn't constitute getting completely driven back, especially when it's noted he "never wavered from his position of superiority":

"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority."

-- The Lawless Episode Gallery

This isn't a blanket statement, this flat out says that Sidious was never in a state of disadvantage in the fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Physical fatigue obviously has a much bigger impact on Force augmentation compared to TK ability. Anakin is an obvious exception and so is Vos, they were just getting a rage amp, but tapping in to the dark side for the first time. Maul is far more seated in his hate.

(EDIT: But nah, Ventress was nowhere near fatally injured, lmao.)

Not neccessarily. And based on what would Vos and Anakin be exceptions? There's other examples to choose from: Anakin's rage allowing him to overpower Asajj whereas he was losing to her on Yavin IV; padawan Kenobi tapping into his rage and managing to disarm and kick Maul, and even drive him back a bit; Savage Opress goes from getting discarded by Dooku or Asajj to choking them both out, and plowing through Anakin and Obi-Wan; Malgus goes from fighting on relatively even terms with Aryn, to forcing her onto her knees in a bladelock, etc. etc. etc.

Maul being trained for it and having greater knowledge on how to exploit his rage would aid him into tapping into said anger to a greater extent than Vos or Anakin could; and just by comparing his respective performance against Sidious pre-Savage death and post-Savage death is enough to prove whatever "exhaustion" he might've had, the rage did more than enough to counter-balance it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No it's not, because Maul's emotion was desperation, not a thirst for blood. On the other hand if we assume it was present regardless, the fact it was not at all noted upon only suggests it wasn't that significant.

I'd imagine it'd be obvious, but fair enough.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Not really Yoda flat out says he isn't strong enough, makes no mention of just being alone.

My question is, what if they had decided to fight Sidious together?

Originally posted by MythLord
That's about as conclusive to the overall state of the fight as Asajj driving back Obi-Wan, or Shaak Ti driving back Galen, tbh. Sidious stepping back a bit doesn't constitute getting completely driven back, especially when it's noted he "never wavered from his position of superiority":

"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority."

-- The Lawless Episode Gallery

This isn't a blanket statement, this flat out says that Sidious was never in a state of disadvantage in the fight.

Not neccessarily. And based on what would Vos and Anakin be exceptions? There's other examples to choose from: Anakin's rage allowing him to overpower Asajj whereas he was losing to her on Yavin IV; padawan Kenobi tapping into his rage and managing to disarm and kick Maul, and even drive him back a bit; Savage Opress goes from getting discarded by Dooku or Asajj to choking them both out, and plowing through Anakin and Obi-Wan; Malgus goes from fighting on relatively even terms with Aryn, to forcing her onto her knees in a bladelock, etc. etc. etc.

Again, Maul is deeply seated in his hate, getting pissed off about his brother is not going to rocket him up to new plateaus of power that he couldn't have already reached. Unless you care to argue this is more of a motivator than getting cut in half by Kenobi.

Maul being trained for it and having greater knowledge on how to exploit his rage would aid him into tapping into said anger to a greater extent than Vos or Anakin could; and just by comparing his respective performance against Sidious pre-Savage death and post-Savage death is enough to prove whatever "exhaustion" he might've had, the rage did more than enough to counter-balance it.

Originally posted by Rebel95
I don't think you understand what I'm saying, or you just don't understand what Yoda is saying. Obi Wan asks to fight Sidious instead of Anakin, and Yoda tells Obi Wan that he's not strong enough to fight Sidious alone. "To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."

My question is, what if they had decided to fight Sidious together?

Yoda makes no mention of Obi-Wan fighting Sidious alone. He just says he's not strong enough, with or without Yoda.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yoda makes no mention of Obi-Wan fighting Sidious alone. He just says he's not strong enough, with or without Yoda.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
😬 No, he means that Kenobi isn't strong enough to fight Palpatine alone, lmfao.

Lol @ suggesting Kenobi wouldn't be f*cked either way.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yoda makes no mention of Obi-Wan fighting Sidious alone. He just says he's not strong enough, with or without Yoda.

Referring back to my question of what would happen if they fought Sidious together, I take it you all think Obi Wan wouldn't have been any help then?