Exar Kun vs. Darth Vader/Darth Krayt

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, duh, since "greatest power" can also be a lightsider, whereas "darkest power" cannot.

But I take it you think it means something different than strength in the Force, since I doubt you think Bane, Vader or Krayt are more powerful than nexus-amped Vitiate.

There's a good century or so separating the Vitiate that did that and Exar Kun. Besides, Vitiate was outside the galaxy at the time, slowly rebuilding his Empire. So it still shouldn't apply.

Nor could Vitiate one-shot Revan without charging his power, first.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Arguably that's been retconned though. Though aside from that one most ask the question of whether it includes Vitiate given he did not then exist, certainly its not a standard the TOR phags have ever extended to Sheev.

Retconned where?

And I don't agree with that mentality on canon. You can only retcon things actively, not passively.

Originally posted by MythLord
[B]There's a good century or so separating the Vitiate that did that and Exar Kun. Besides, Vitiate was outside the galaxy at the time, slowly rebuilding his Empire. So it still shouldn't apply.

And Exar was pre-prime. Given we cannot quantify the power growths of either character, we should just assume they're equal or leave them out of the equation completely.

Nor could Vitiate one-shot Revan without charging his power, first.

Never said he could.

Originally posted by Azronger
And Exar was pre-prime. Given we cannot quantify the power growths of either character, we should just assume they're equal or leave them out of the equation completely.

A few years pre-prime is nothing compared to a few decades. Besides, like I said, Vitiate was outside the known galaxy at the time so it shouldn't apply.

Wouldn't arguing Freedon Nadd is above Ragnos with that quote can also be used to place Nadd above Kun and just above any other Sith lol. I mean he became the greatest Sorcerer ever and IIRC that sourcebook does mention Kun. It isn't like other quotes that simply call a Sith Lord the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith, which we can infer that it means up to their time. This says Nadd was the greatest Sorcerer that had ever existed.

Originally posted by MythLord
A few years pre-prime is nothing compared to a few decades. Besides, like I said, Vitiate was outside the known galaxy at the time so it shouldn't apply.

The Unknown Regions and Dromund Kaas are still part of the galaxy, so it applies 👆

And where is the proof that Vitiate even grew considerably? He didn't get that much stronger in a millenium (considering Revan could contend with him on a DS nexus), whereas Kun eclipsed Karness Muur (and by proxy, Darth Krayt), Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd in just a few years. In addition, he gained an additional boost when he got access to the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. I'd say his power-growth is far greater than Vitiate's.

Originally posted by Azronger
Retconned where?

And I don't agree with that mentality on canon. You can only retcon things actively, not passively.

That's from the SWTOR Codex, but by Revan the Sith Emperor is already a "god-like avatar of the dark side", so it stands to reason that at this point his mastery over the dark side was nigh absolute.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Wouldn't arguing Freedon Nadd is above Ragnos with that quote can also be used to place Nadd above Kun and just above any other Sith lol. I mean he became the greatest Sorcerer ever and IIRC that sourcebook does mention Kun. It isn't like other quotes that simply call a Sith Lord the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith, which we can infer that it means up to their time. This says Nadd was the greatest Sorcerer that had ever existed.

IIRC, those were Nadd's personal thoughts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

That's from the SWTOR Codex, but by Revan the Sith Emperor is already a "god-like avatar of the dark side", so it stands to reason that at this point his mastery over the dark side was nigh absolute.

Yes, by TOR, he had surpassed Kun. Not as of the novel, though. Can you quantify "god-like avatar of the dark side"? No, but you sure can quantify "darkest power in the galaxy". It doesn't take a genius to figure out which is the superior accolade.

The accolade doesn't say anything that situates it in TOR, only that he achieved it by mastering the dark side's power, which he'd evidently done by the Revan novel if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side."

Originally posted by Azronger
The Unknown Regions and Dromund Kaas are still part of the galaxy, so it applies 👆

Not really. Dromund Kaas at the time wasn't a part of the galaxy. It only official becomes that once the Republic adds it onto the star maps.

Originally posted by Azronger
And where is the proof that Vitiate even grew considerably? He didn't get that much stronger in a millenium (considering Revan could contend with him on a DS nexus), whereas Kun eclipsed Karness Muur (and by proxy, Darth Krayt), Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd in just a few years. In addition, he gained an additional boost when he got access to the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. I'd say his power-growth is far greater than Vitiate's.

Vitiate by the age of ten was already taken control of planets and slaughtering fully-pledged Sith Lords. That's a lot of innate talent, that would've ultimately been boosted by the Nathema Ritual. Exar Kun was already an incredibly impressive and powerful Jedi Knight, and he uncovered a vast treasure-drove of knowledge within a very short amount of time, something we know can give a person exceptional powers. He should grow considerably in a few years, but Vitiate has at least similar raw power and now an additional several decades to grow.
Besides, it's stated that Vitiate was becoming an "unfathomable power" whilst in exile on Dromund Kaas. That'd put him ahead of Exar Kun.

Besides, what's this going to prove? It's not like novel!Vitiate is beating Krayt and Vader at the same time, lmao.

Originally posted by MythLord
Not really. Dromund Kaas at the time wasn't a part of the galaxy. It only official becomes that once the Republic adds it onto the star maps.

I believe the quote said "darkest power in the galaxy", not "darkest power in the portion of the galaxy known to the Republic".

Vitiate by the age of ten was already taken control of planets and slaughtering fully-pledged Sith Lords. That's a lot of innate talent, that would've ultimately been boosted by the Nathema Ritual. Exar Kun was already an incredibly impressive and powerful Jedi Knight, and he uncovered a vast treasure-drove of knowledge within a very short amount of time, something we know can give a person exceptional powers. He should grow considerably in a few years, but Vitiate has at least similar raw power and now an additional several decades to grow.

Nothing there proves that Vitiate grew more powerful than Kun. It only proves my original point further: they both have comparable raw talent, so they would advance at an equal rate. Kun had additional artifacts to boost his power that Vitiate didn't, and Vitiate had a few extra decades that Kun didn't. Since there's no way to know which would provide a greater boost, we should just leave the power-growth out of the equation completely.

Besides, it's stated that Vitiate was becoming an "unfathomable power" whilst in exile on Dromund Kaas. That'd put him ahead of Exar Kun.

Give me the full quote. That sounds suspiciously hyperbolic.

Besides, what's this going to prove? It's not like novel!Vitiate is beating Krayt and Vader at the same time, lmao.

Of course he isn't. But Kun, who's more powerful and has vastly greater skill in CQC, might. Not saying it would happen, but he has a lot going for him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The accolade doesn't say anything that situates it in TOR, only that he achieved it by mastering the dark side's power, which he'd evidently done by the Revan novel if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side."

Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side even before the Nathema ritual, if he is described as "supremely strong in the dark side" and succeeded in performing "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted", yet he wasn't more powerful than Sadow, Kressh, or Kun (who have each also mastered the dark side), so I don't think the quote means what you think it does.

I'd say it means that he has mastered the dark side to the point where he is now ("now" being as of TOR) the most powerful, or that he has mastered the dark side so that he could become the most powerful, as in "I have mastered a certain skill to become the best the world has ever seen at that certain skill." Meaning that he hasn't yet.

Either way you spin it, Kun is still better than novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side even before the Nathema ritual, if he is described as "supremely strong in the dark side" and succeeded in performing "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted", yet he wasn't more powerful than Sadow, Kressh, or Kun (who have each also mastered the dark side), so I don't think the quote means what you think it does.

I'd say it means that he has mastered the dark side to the point where he is now ("now" being as of TOR) the most powerful, or that he has mastered the dark side so that he could become the most powerful, as in "I have mastered a certain skill to become the best the world has ever seen at that certain skill." Meaning that he hasn't yet.

Either way you spin it, Kun is still better than novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Supremely powerful is bandied around a lot, "god like avatar" is quite different.

True, but ultimately both are flowery wording and hyperboles used to describe a very powerful being. And you didn't counter my point about the ritual. Obviously Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side at that point, and would, according to your interpretation of the accolade, now be the strongest darksider in history. Nothing prevents others from surpassing him later on, though.

Not really interested in how you care to spin it, fact remains that nothing precludes it being the case 300 years ago, and there are plenty of others besides (for example he's referred to as "history's most powerful dark side master"😉 I merely drew attention to that one because it ties it to his mastery.

Except the fact that there's not really much proof for it being the case during the novel. He doesn't have the feats of someone like Nihilus until TOR, and if we go by your interpretation of the quote, he'd already have mastered the dark side before Kun's birth, which means there's nothing preventing the latter from surpassing him. My alternate interpretations also still remain valid until you counter them.

"History's most powerful dark side master" was a description of him during and after the events of TOR provided by in-universe historians, so I don't see how it could be latched onto novel Vitiate.

Kun who was stalemating Ulic Qel Droma is better than Vitiate who was one shotting councils and stomping Revan? Maybe not lol.

First, Kun's stalemate of Ulic happened before he grew massively in power and received the accolade. Second, it was a lightsaber duel; nothing to do with Force power.

Originally posted by Azronger
True, but ultimately both are flowery wording and hyperboles used to describe a very powerful being. And you didn't counter my point about the ritual. Obviously Vitiate had "mastered" the dark side at that point, and would, according to your interpretation of the accolade, now be the strongest darksider in history. Nothing prevents others from surpassing him later on, though.

Except the fact that there's not really much proof for it being the case during the novel. He doesn't have the feats of someone like Nihilus until TOR, and if we go by your interpretation of the quote, he'd already have mastered the dark side before Kun's birth, which means there's nothing preventing the latter from surpassing him. My alternate interpretations also still remain valid until you counter them.

And your alternative explanations are just that, alternatives, they don't preclude the accolade applying to novel Vitiate, which means Kun's superiority is not concrete, just an (unlikely) possibility.

"History's most powerful dark side master" was a description of him during and after the events of TOR provided by in-universe historians, so I don't see how it could be latched onto novel Vitiate.

First, Kun's stalemate of Ulic happened before he grew massively in power and received the accolade.

Second, it was a lightsaber duel; nothing to do with Force power.

Originally posted by Azronger
I believe the quote said "darkest power in the galaxy", not "darkest power in the portion of the galaxy known to the Republic".

And the galaxy at the time didn't officially have Dromund Kaas as a part of it. It was part of an outer void.

Originally posted by Azronger
Nothing there proves that Vitiate grew more powerful than Kun. It only proves my original point further: they both have comparable raw talent, so they would advance at an equal rate. Kun had additional artifacts to boost his power that Vitiate didn't, and Vitiate had a few extra decades that Kun didn't. Since there's no way to know which would provide a greater boost, we should just leave the power-growth out of the equation completely.

Comparable raw talent doesn't mean they'd advance at an equal rate. Even assuming it did, Exar Kun had artifacts since before he fought Qel-Droma so I doubt they would've kept adding powers to him each day.
Also, Exar Kun was claimed "the darkest power in the galaxy" the same year as the Sith War ended, so that means he was pretty much at his peak power at the time.

So whatever power-growth Kun might've had within the last few weeks, it wouldn't have been enough to match a decades long power-growth.

Originally posted by Azronger
Give me the full quote. That sounds suspiciously hyperbolic.

" The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

-- Old Republic: Revan

"The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the millitary, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power."

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Azronger
Of course he isn't. But Kun, who's more powerful and has vastly greater skill in CQC, might. Not saying it would happen, but he has a lot going for him.

Well, you can honestly argue Krayt is more powerful than this version of Vitiate, as well. Exar Kun, not quite. Nor would it matter if he's vastly better in CQC, since so are both Krayt and Vader.
If you wanna compare Krayt and Exar to high tiers, Krayt was meant to be a Dark Side version of Luke against Abeloth, and was considered a great replacement Sith for Darth Caedus. Strikes me as at least in Exar's range.

Krayt still solos.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point is that if he's being described as a "god-like avatar of the dark side" he's very much come in to his own power, a god like avatar being rather synonymous with "history's most powerful dark side master" imo. It simply gives very little reason to believe that novel Vitiate was not in the prime of his powers.

Yeah, except both of those accolades are from the perspective of historians. Hardly reliable. And it's not like basing someone's power level on an unquantifiable flowery hype isn't dubious in itself.

Like? In vanilla TOR Vitiate's only real feat is stomping a scrub strike team.

I obviously meant Ziost.

And your alternative explanations are just that, alternatives, they don't preclude the accolade applying to novel Vitiate, which means Kun's superiority is not concrete, just an (unlikely) possibility.

Yes, they do. I'm going to explain this once more: You claim that the quote implies that because Vitiate has mastered the dark side, he is now the most powerful dark side user there is. You then go on to claim that he has mastered the dark side in the novel, since he's labeled as a "godlike avatar of the dark side", and thus, is superior to Exar Kun. But the flaw in your argument is that he had mastered the dark side long before Exar Kun was born. He may have been the most powerful darksider in history before Exar Kun's birth, but there's nothing precluding the notion of Kun surpassing him later, since "history" in this context only includes beings prior to Vitiate's existence. And Kun seemed to have surpassed him, given that he was labeled "the darkest power in the galaxy", despite Vitiate, who had already mastered the dark side, residing there.

And then there's my other alternative, which also precludes the idea of novel Vitiate being stronger than Kun. The quote claims Vitiate has mastered the dark side to become its most powerful user. Mastery of the dark side would obviously be a prerequisite for being on the top of a big pile of people who all have mastered the dark side themselves, which is why Vitiate mastered it. But the quote says his goal is to become the most powerful dark side user ever, implying he hasn't reached this position yet.

It refers to the past obviously, hence "history's", and these historians are writing from after the events of TOR, since they catalogue all of it and even allude to future expansions.

Well, obviously. Doesn't do anything to disprove my point, though.

He didn't grow massively in anything. Ulic underwent a radical transformation though.

Based on what? I'd say becoming the most powerful Sith Lord in history is quite the power-growth.

Lol, maybe rethink that sentence.

Yeah, it's kinda dumb now that I look at it. But it should be obvious I meant Lightning blasts and Tutaminis.

Originally posted by MythLord
And the galaxy at the time didn't officially have Dromund Kaas as a part of it. It was part of an outer void.

I just disproved this point. Nowhere is it stated that the quote was only referring to the portion of the galaxy the Republic was familiar with. You made that up.

Comparable raw talent doesn't mean they'd advance at an equal rate. Even assuming it did, Exar Kun had artifacts since before he fought Qel-Droma so I doubt they would've kept adding powers to him each day.
Also, Exar Kun was claimed "the darkest power in the galaxy" the same year as the Sith War ended, so that means he was pretty much at his peak power at the time.

So whatever power-growth Kun might've had within the last few weeks, it wouldn't have been enough to match a decades long power-growth.

All of this is completely baseless speculation. I'll repeat myself again here: We don't know whether the holocron gave a greater boost than a few decades of dark side study, so we should just leave it out of the equation.

" The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

-- Old Republic: Revan

"The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the millitary, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power."

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Oh, I've no doubt his power was unfathomable... for Scourge and a couple of historians.

Well, you can honestly argue Krayt is more powerful than this version of Vitiate, as well. Exar Kun, not quite. Nor would it matter if he's vastly better in CQC, since so are both Krayt and Vader.
If you wanna compare Krayt and Exar to high tiers, Krayt was meant to be a Dark Side version of Luke against Abeloth, and was considered a great replacement Sith for Darth Caedus. Strikes me as at least in Exar's range.

Krayt still solos.

I'm not here to make the argument that Kun wins this. I'm just here to say that this isn't nearly as one-sided as people think, and posted the accolade. I'm mainly arguing the accolade's validity, not Kun's superiority to this duo.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, except both of those accolades are from the perspective of historians. Hardly reliable. And it's not like basing someone's power level on an unquantifiable flowery hype isn't dubious in itself.

And obviously it's hyperbole, but it still reflects him being in the prime of his power.

I obviously meant Ziost.

Yes, they do. I'm going to explain this once more: You claim that the quote implies that because Vitiate has mastered the dark side, he is now the most powerful dark side user there is. You then go on to claim that he has mastered the dark side in the novel, since he's labeled as a "godlike avatar of the dark side", and thus, is superior to Exar Kun. But the flaw in your argument is that he had mastered the dark side long before Exar Kun was born. He may have been the most powerful darksider in history before Exar Kun's birth, but there's nothing precluding the notion of Kun surpassing him later, since "history" in this context only includes beings prior to Vitiate's existence. And Kun seemed to have surpassed him, given that he was labeled "the darkest power in the galaxy", despite Vitiate, who had already mastered the dark side, residing there.

And then there's my other alternative, which also precludes the idea of novel Vitiate being stronger than Kun. The quote claims Vitiate has mastered the dark side to become its most powerful user. Mastery of the dark side would obviously be a prerequisite for being on the top of a big pile of people who all have mastered the dark side themselves, which is why Vitiate mastered it. But the quote says his goal is to become the most powerful dark side user ever, implying he hasn't reached this position yet.

Well, obviously. Doesn't do anything to disprove my point, though.

Based on what? I'd say becoming the most powerful Sith Lord in history is quite the power-growth.

Yeah, it's kinda dumb now that I look at it. But it should be obvious I meant Lightning blasts and Tutaminis.

More to the point its said that the fight would have gone on for hours, and resulted in both their deaths, that wouldn't be the case is overpowering Ulic with the Force was an option.