Originally posted by Azronger
I just disproved this point. Nowhere is it stated that the quote was only referring to the portion of the galaxy the Republic was familiar with. You made that up.
I'll drop this point.
Originally posted by Azronger
All of this is completely baseless speculation. I'll repeat myself again here: We don't know whether the holocron gave a greater boost than a few decades of dark side study, so we should just leave it out of the equation.
Logically, it shouldn't. Dooku had been given the same holocron, yet he certainly didn't grow "vastly" from it, given his standing in the order as second to Mace/Yoda. He'd be within Yoda's tier of power by AotC if just a few weeks of Exar Kun using it rivals a decades long growth of someone with the innate talent to kill Sith Lords in his teenage years.
Originally posted by Azronger
Oh, I've no doubt his power was unfathomable... for Scourge and a couple of historians.
Those same historians being familiar with Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun? It definitely has validity.
Originally posted by Azronger
I'm not here to make the argument that Kun wins this. I'm just here to say that this isn't nearly as one-sided as people think, and posted the accolade. I'm mainly arguing the accolade's validity, not Kun's superiority to this duo.
It is one-sided since just Krayt himself is more than a match for Exar. The accolade is nice, but certainly means very little against Vader or Krayt. But fair enough.
Records do not reveal the fate of the Sith Holocrons used by Exar Kun and Count Dooku.
- Jedi VS Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
It is made clear that they are not the same holocrons, Kun destroyed the one he used and unleashed Sith spirits which possessed the Jedi prodigies on Ossus. The one stolen by Dooku is quite likely to be one of the many forgeries that Sidious pointed out were in the Jedi Archives.
Furthermore, it is said that Exar Kun wouldn't have rose to power as quickly as he had without the Dark Holocron. The fact is that Exar Kun goes from stalemating Ulic Qel-Droma to being stated to be 'far more powerful' than him or any other Jedi in his prime over five years later.
The "far more powerful than any Jedi" accolade doesn't really refer to Ulic after he's left the Jedi and joined with Aleema, which is when him and Kun fought. Furthermore, sources suggest that Ulic is the only one in the galaxy with the power to challenge Kun. After their stalemate, both were noted to rise in power, and Ulic spent much of his time in combat. Kun is more powerful, but it's not by as huge a margin as you're suggesting.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
We're given no reason to doubt the material. 😬
Except the very fact that it's from the perspective of historians is a reason in itself to doubt it. Kun doesn't have any feats that would put him above Vitiate in power, yet according to omniscient sources he became the strongest Sith Lord up to that time and the most powerful darksider in the galaxy. Could the historians know that, if he never displayed any of his powers on a massive scale like Vitiate? Of course not, so I don't see how their word can be viewed as an accurate.
And obviously it's hyperbole, but it still reflects him being in the prime of his power.
Again, a description of him provided by historians. If Kun had ever unleashed all of his powers to their fullest, do you know whether they would have labeled him "godlike" or not? Well, there's no way to know, since he never did, and we're left with the opinions of historians who are ignorant of all the details in galactic history.
Which happen post vanilla TOR, by which Vitiate had already been established as above the likes of Nihilus and Kun, so what's your point?
I never said I was referring solely to vanilla TOR. I can blatantly see that Vitiate has surpassed Kun by looking at his Ziost feat.
Uh-huh you're not getting it, the point is that there is nothing that makes these readings necessary, sure they are workable, but they are just your opinions. The quote(s) could just as easily be read as referring to novel Vitiate and onwards, or even before that. It isn't anywhere specified at which point Vitiate became the most powerful Force user ever, only that he was by TOR.
Indeed. So why would you assume it is referring to novel Vitiate? Is it because of the "almost godlike" accolade?
Uh-huh it means we've no reason to believe they are describing him as of TOR, and only TOR.
I don't think you understood my point. What I meant was that the historians observing him are looking at him as he appears as of TOR, and as such, the accolade can only be applied to him as of TOR.
Only if we assume it puts him above novel Vitiate kek. In which case its exactly what it disproves, given that Kun did little to nothing to radically progress himself between the time of matching Ulic and claiming the holocron.Which doesn't change the fact that he matched his Force augmentation.
More to the point its said that the fight would have gone on for hours, and resulted in both their deaths, that wouldn't be the case is overpowering Ulic with the Force was an option.
Well, I guess this is just a good feat for Ulic, then.
Originally posted by MythLord
Logically, it shouldn't. Dooku had been given the same holocron, yet he certainly didn't grow "vastly" from it, given his standing in the order as second to Mace/Yoda. He'd be within Yoda's tier of power by AotC if just a few weeks of Exar Kun using it rivals a decades long growth of someone with the innate talent to kill Sith Lords in his teenage years.
AP just disproved this, but I'll address ot anyway: What is any of this based on? Based on what did he not grow vastly? Because he was still behind Yoda and Mace? Based on what was the gap so small that a "vast" growth couldn't have occurred? Based on what would he be in Yoda's tier? Based on what was the gap between Dooku and Yoda the same as between Exar and Vitiate?
Those same historians being familiar with Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun? It definitely has validity.
Familar with the Sith Lords themselves, yes, but with their accomplishments, no. How could they be, when some never even exerted themselves to their fullest?
Az I only went along with this historians bunk for the sake of convenience, its never actually stated who the book is written by only that it's in universe (all DK Books are, including the Visual Dictionaries and the Ultimate Guide) but they could well be omniscient as they are in TCSWE. More to the point they are privy to information about the Emperor that no one else knows. Or in other words, you're basing this idea that they are unreliable on fabricated contexts, so I'd try a different excuse tbh.
Originally posted by AncientPower
It is made clear that they are not the same holocrons, Kun destroyed the one he used and unleashed Sith spirits which possessed the Jedi prodigies on Ossus. The one stolen by Dooku is quite likely to be one of the many forgeries that Sidious pointed out were in the Jedi Archives.
Exar Kun didn't destroy the holocron, as the comic notes his intention was just to release the spirits from out of it. It's certainly repairable, and why would he destroy it? He just got it from Odan Urr, and before glimpsing into it completely he opts to destroy it? Makes no sense.
Again, I'll need a quote for what Dooku possessed was a forgery. Because Fact File seems to note that it's the real deal, and so does Sidious.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Furthermore, it is said that Exar Kun wouldn't have rose to power as quickly as he had without the Dark Holocron. The fact is that Exar Kun goes from stalemating Ulic Qel-Droma to being stated to be 'far more powerful' than him or any other Jedi in his prime over five years later.
Again, quote? According to you he "destroyed it" almost immediately after maybe having the time to use it once or twice. Doesn't seem like it was a lot of time to suck up the knowledge.
As for the Ulic thing, ILS sums it up rather niceley.
Originally posted by Azronger
AP just disproved this, but I'll address ot anyway: What is any of this based on? Based on what did he not grow vastly? Because he was still behind Yoda and Mace? Based on what was the gap so small that a "vast" growth couldn't have occurred? Based on what would he be in Yoda's tier? Based on what was the gap between Dooku and Yoda the same as between Exar and Vitiate?
Follow me on this now. It's stated that, if Dooku had not turned to the Dark Side, but stayed in the Jedi Order and lived longer(beyond just the timeframe of RotS) he would've been a rival of Grandmaster Yoda. This is backed up by his innate talent/potential being something Yoda has trouble understanding. So obviously, by TPM Dooku's not so far behind Yoda where the latter could outright ragdoll him.
Assuming he'd grow three decades worth in a few weeks from the holocron, according to you, he'd be peaking at Yoda level alread by AotC or even prior, but he isn't and he's still a considerable inferior of the Grandmaster.
And what drives this home is that Exar Kun had the holocron for a few days, at best, before "destroying it" according to you and AP. So a few days(and even that might be too much) reading a holocron is meant to rival fourty years of amassing "unfathomable powers"? Sorry, but your theory has too many holes.
Originally posted by Azronger
Familar with the Sith Lords themselves, yes, but with their accomplishments, no. How could they be, when some never even exerted themselves to their fullest?
Well the TOR encyclopedia hypes up the ancient Sith and even their spirits, and a lot of their good accolades come from it. Besides, Marka Ragnos' and Naga Sadow's rules have been celebrated and a lot of the stuff they did has been documented(both on the battlefield and off). It'd make sense that they be at least somewhat familiar with the power of these Sith.
Originally posted by MythLord
Exar Kun didn't destroy the holocron, as the comic notes his intention was just to release the spirits from out of it. It's certainly repairable, and why would he destroy it? He just got it from Odan Urr, and before glimpsing into it completely he opts to destroy it? Makes no sense.
Wut?
He didn't 'just get it', they travel all the way to Yavin IV, which according to guides regarding hyperdrive travel would've taken them almost two weeks.
Besides, it is a fact that Kun learnt from and became more powerful through it.
Originally posted by MythLord
Again, I'll need a quote for what Dooku possessed was a forgery. Because Fact File seems to note that it's the real deal, and so does Sidious.
I don't have a direct quote about the specific holocron, but Sidious claims in Jedi Path that the Sith paraphernalia in the Jedi Archives were elaborate forgeries.
Originally posted by MythLord
Again, quote? According to you he "destroyed it" almost immediately after maybe having the time to use it once or twice. Doesn't seem like it was a lot of time to suck up the knowledge.
Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he’d had the chance.
- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Odan-Urr kept this Sith Holocron for nearly a millennium before it was stolen by the Jedi Exar Kun, who used it to learn many secrets of the Sith.
- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Originally posted by MythLord
As for the Ulic thing, ILS sums it up rather nicely.
He missed the point, actually.
Originally posted by ILS
The "far more powerful than any Jedi" accolade doesn't really refer to Ulic after he's left the Jedi and joined with Aleema, which is when him and Kun fought. Furthermore, sources suggest that Ulic is the only one in the galaxy with the power to challenge Kun. After their stalemate, both were noted to rise in power, and Ulic spent much of his time in combat. Kun is more powerful, but it's not by as huge a margin as you're suggesting.
Except the quote isn't specifically referring to the devastation of Yavin IV, it is referring to 'the time'. In which they are generalising the Great Sith War and stating that even though he was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force defeated him.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Wut?
And as the narration says: "Exar Kun does not intend to destroy... but to release". He smashed the thing to release the spirits hidden in it, but he didn't destroy it completely, nor should he.
Originally posted by AncientPower
He didn't 'just get it', they travel all the way to Yavin IV, which according to guides regarding hyperdrive travel would've taken them almost two weeks.
Again, quote?
Originally posted by AncientPower
Besides, it is a fact that Kun learnt from and became more powerful through it.
I will concede to that as you provided quotes. I still doubt several days studying from the holocron could match four decades of amassing unfathomable powers.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I don't have a direct quote about the specific holocron, but Sidious claims in Jedi Path that the Sith paraphernalia in the Jedi Archives were elaborate forgeries.
Which doesn't seem to be the case with the "Dark Holocron" as Sheev is pleased when Dooku fetched that from the Archives.
Originally posted by AncientPower
He missed the point, actually.
I'll let you two settle that amongst yourselves. I'm just here to argue that Exar Kun isn't on par with Vitiate.
Originally posted by MythLord
And as the narration says: "Exar Kun does not intend to destroy... but to [B]release". He smashed the thing to release the spirits hidden in it, but he didn't destroy it completely, nor should he.[/B]
You're wildly misinterpreting the scene, he claims he wants to destroy the holocron with the aid of the Jedi. In reality he intends to destroy the holocron and release the spirits so as to corrupt the Jedi and start his Sith Brotherhood.
Originally posted by MythLord
Again, quote?
I'm not quoting anything, I'm merely measuring the estimates of hyperspace travel across the galaxy given in the guides. Ossus to Yavin IV is a long way.
Originally posted by MythLord
Which doesn't seem to be the case with the "Dark Holocron" as Sheev is pleased when Dooku fetched that from the Archives.
Regardless, the point remains that Dooku and Kun did not use the same Sith holocron, Kun destroyed his and released the spirits within it. Furthermore, we know Exar Kun's knowledge died with him.
Originally posted by MythLord
I'll let you two settle that amongst yourselves. I'm just here to argue that Exar Kun isn't on par with Vitiate.
I doubt he is, but he definitely grew a lot with that holocron. He even got his lightsaber technique and saberstaff from it.
Originally posted by AncientPower
You're wildly misinterpreting the scene, he claims he wants to destroy the holocron with the aid of the Jedi. In reality he intends to destroy the holocron and release the spirits so as to corrupt the Jedi and start his Sith Brotherhood.
Well whatever really happened to the holocron, it must've been recovered as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Fact File and The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection seem to retcon the idea that it was destroyed and confirm Dooku recovered it:
"Nod tried to convince Dooku to access the Temple's forbidden Sith Holocron. Although Dooku was intrigued by the secrets of the Sith artifact(and would in fact steal the device decades later) he refused."
-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #116
[i]Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm not quoting anything, I'm merely measuring the estimates of hyperspace travel across the galaxy given in the guides. Ossus to Yavin IV is a long way.
I would very much like to hear a reason as to why you think it takes that long...
Originally posted by AncientPower
Regardless, the point remains that Dooku and Kun did not use the same Sith holocron, Kun destroyed his and released the spirits within it. Furthermore, we know Exar Kun's knowledge died with him.
How do we know? Again, a quote would be lovely. Later established media seems to point to the Dark Holocron being reconstructed, just perhaps not with the spirits inside it anymore. Or the event of it's destruction was retconned altogether.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I doubt he is, but he definitely grew a lot with that holocron. He even got his lightsaber technique and saberstaff from it.
That's nice.
Originally posted by MythLord
Wut?
You said the Vehicles & Starships book had that quote about the Holocron.
What does that have to do with Vehicles & Starships? Absolutely nothing. I also recall another quote that had absolutely nothing to do with vehicles in another book about vehicles.
It's just too weird to find quotes like that, when a book is suppose to be focusing on something else.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
You said the Vehicles & Starships book had that quote about the Holocron.What does that have to do with Vehicles & Starships? Absolutely nothing. I also recall another quote that had absolutely nothing to do with vehicles in another book about vehicles.
It's just too weird to find quotes like that, when a book is suppose to be focusing on something else.
It was a book detailing Dooku's star cruiser, and Dooku's life along with it. So it mentions how Nod, then later he stole the Dark Holocron and how that was a key moment for him turning to the Dark Side...
The Vehicles collection has a tendency to tell the biography of the owner of said vehicle, then explain the purpose of the vehicle itself.