Originally posted by Beniboybling
Az I only went along with this historians bunk for the sake of convenience, its never actually stated who the book is written by only that it's in universe (all DK Books are, including the Visual Dictionaries and the Ultimate Guide) but they could well be omniscient as they are in TCSWE. More to the point they are privy to information about the Emperor that no one else knows. Or in other words, you're basing this idea that they are unreliable on fabricated contexts, so I'd try a different excuse tbh.
It's not stated anywhere that they're omniscient. And Nai already disproved the notion here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16012240#post16012240
And what exactly are you referring to with "information about the Emperor that no one else knows"? Gnost Dural appeared to know a shit ton about Vitiate, things that no one else knows. Do you think he's omniscient, too? Well, whatever you think, he's not, since he admitted they were only his theories. Just like what the historians write in the Encyclopedia are just their theories as well.
It's not a fabricated context; it's just common sense. No historians has knowledge of how certain events truly transpired; they just look at historical records piece together a conclusion that, to them, makes the most sense. They're not omniscient and don't know everything. And even some of the records they use as "evidence" of certain events may be only half-truths or outright falsehoods, and some might just be guesswork (like a lot of Gnost Dural's stuff). Even some of the historians themselves might be biased and alter or leave something out.
For example, them referring to Vitiate as "almost godlike" may just be a result of Imperial propaganda and/or as a result of being non-Force senstive/low-tier Force sensitive and their limited understanding of what it possible and what isn't. I'm betting you, me and a lot of other people would think mind controlling a planet and draining it dry of life is impossible for a single man to do with the power of his mind, and wouldn't logically make sense since it's fiction, yet if it did happen, I think quite a lot of people would treat such a being as a god.
Another example, how do they know how powerful Exar Kun was? They're ignorant, as we of a lot of things that happened in our history, yet we don't include events in our history books that don't appear in any historical records. Just like the historians in Star Wars don't include events that they don't know to have happened, or in this case, outright didn't happen. Exar Kun never showed his true power to the galaxy, yet sources that are omniscient tell us that he was the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever existed, above such individuals as Karness Muur (who was a peer of Darth Krayt, which opens up a whole new doorway feats and scaling), Freedon Nadd (whose weakened spirit was so much more powerful than King Ommin, a Sith Sorcerer who could literally dominate millions with his powers, that the latter's very survival depended upon his power), and even nexus-amped Vitiate himself, who resided in the galaxy at the time when Exar Kun was proclaimed by another omniscient source as the most powerful dark side user in the galaxy, before the peak of his powers. Who's to say the historians wouldn't have labeled him as "almost godlike" if he had shown his true abilities with the Force?
You're taking this one accolade way too seriously. It's not evidence of novel Vitiate's superiority to Exar Kun in any way, shape or form.
Originally posted by MythLord
Follow me on this now. It's stated that, if Dooku had not turned to the Dark Side, but stayed in the Jedi Order and lived longer(beyond just the timeframe of RotS) he would've been a rival of Grandmaster Yoda. This is backed up by his innate talent/potential being something Yoda has trouble understanding. So obviously, by TPM Dooku's not so far behind Yoda where the latter could outright ragdoll him.
Who's to say how long Dooku would've lived or how long it would have taken him to attain that potential, or how far off from it he was as of TPM? None of what you said proves the gap between TPM Dooku and Yoda isn't in the ragdoll range.
Assuming he'd grow three decades worth in a few weeks from the holocron, according to you, he'd be peaking at Yoda level alread by AotC or even prior, but he isn't and he's still a considerable inferior of the Grandmaster.
Baseless speculation.
And what drives this home is that Exar Kun had the holocron for a few days, at best, before "destroying it" according to you and AP. So a few days(and even that might be too much) reading a holocron is meant to rival fourty years of amassing "unfathomable powers"? Sorry, but your theory has too many holes.
Just because you find it hard to believe, that a holocron could grant someone that much power in such a short amount of time, doesn't mean my "theory" has any holes in it, lol.
Well the TOR encyclopedia hypes up the ancient Sith and even their spirits, and a lot of their good accolades come from it. Besides, Marka Ragnos' and Naga Sadow's rules have been celebrated and a lot of the stuff they did has been documented(both on the battlefield and off). It'd make sense that they be at least somewhat familiar with the power of these Sith.
Accolades ≠ feats. Sure, they may be familiar with Naga Sadow because the Great Hyperspace War was one of the most notable events in galactic history that was remembered all the way to the modern era, but Marka Ragnos? Karness Muur? All they know is that they were powerful and that's about it. How could they know about their capabilities with the Force? And then there's Exar Kun, who, as I've said many times in this thread, never unleashed his full power to the galaxy.
And the Dark Holocron was definitely destroyed at Kun's hands. We even see on the same page that there's nothing left of it in Kun's hand, and on the next page the shards are literally absorbed into the Jedi's bodies, wiping out all traces of the holocron. What Dooku viewed definitely wasn't the same, and sourcebooks who say it wasn't destroyed are simply incorrect.
Originally posted by Azronger
Who's to say how long Dooku would've lived or how long it would have taken him to attain that potential, or how far off from it he was as of TPM? None of what you said proves the gap between TPM Dooku and Yoda isn't in the ragdoll range.
We know from an objective source that if Dooku stayed with the Jedi he would've soon enough rivalled Yoda. We know he couldn't live long before sucumbing to natural age, and he was already 70 by TPM. By 70, it's logical most of his potential is realized, the potential that he has to one day rival Yoda.
Evidently, if a few days with a holocron = four decades of amassing unfathomable powers, then Dooku should be > Yoda by RotS even if he was within Yoda's ragdoll range by TPM, which given he's close to the peak of his powers and his latent potential rivals Yoda, certianly isn't the case.
Originally posted by Azronger
Baseless speculation.Just because you find it hard to believe, that a holocron could grant someone that much power in such a short amount of time, doesn't mean my "theory" has any holes in it, lol.
Not at all. The Dooku example works perfectly.
Originally posted by Azronger
Accolades ≠ feats. Sure, they may be familiar with Naga Sadow because the Great Hyperspace War was one of the most notable events in galactic history that was remembered all the way to the modern era, but Marka Ragnos? Karness Muur? All they know is that they were powerful and that's about it. How could they know about their capabilities with the Force? And then there's Exar Kun, who, as I've said many times in this thread, never unleashed his full power to the galaxy.
Nah. Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow, etc. All have some incredible hype in the TOR encyclopedia; hype that would've logically only been achieved if the historians writting it knew, or had a vague grasp, at how powerful these Sith in question were. And given how the same introduction that notes this is "in-universe" also notes that the historians went into an "in-depth" history that shaped the galaxy in the time of this war. Exar Kun's Great Sith War did in one way or another shape the galaxy, so they'd be very much aware of his power. Did he ever unleash his full power? No, but neither did the Emperor.
Besides, there's other things that the historians knew of such as the Dark Reaper, which was a weapon more powerful than even Exar Kun, yet it's still noted that the Emperor's powers are "unfathomable" by comparison.
Originally posted by Azronger
And the Dark Holocron was definitely destroyed at Kun's hands. We even see on the same page that there's nothing left of it in Kun's hand, and on the next page the shards are literally absorbed into the Jedi's bodies, wiping out all traces of the holocron. What Dooku viewed definitely wasn't the same, and sourcebooks who say it wasn't destroyed are simply incorrect.
Or maybe it's a, *gasps*, retcon? Happens a lot. Welcome to a fictional franchise. 👆
Originally posted by MythLord
We know from an objective source that if Dooku stayed with the Jedi he would've soon enough rivalled Yoda. We know he couldn't live long before sucumbing to natural age, and he was already 70 by TPM. By 70, it's logical most of his potential is realized, the potential that he has to one day rival Yoda.
Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.
-Insider 113
Don't see the word "soon" there. And some humans can live very long, especially Force users.
Evidently, if a few days with a holocron = four decades of amassing unfathomable powers, then Dooku should be > Yoda by RotS even if he was within Yoda's ragdoll range by TPM, which given he's close to the peak of his powers and his latent potential rivals Yoda, certianly isn't the case.
How do you even know Vitiate spent all that time making himself more powerful? Didn't he himself say that Zakuul was his focus? And how do you know Yoda's growth rate is the same as Vitiate's? He got in 900 years far stronger than Vitiate did in a 1100 (based on novel Vitiate < TOR Vitiate < Valkorion < Plagueis <<< EoTPM Sidious < RotS Sidious = Yoda, so in other words, novel Vitiate <<<<<<< Yoda). Four decades to him is a lot more growth than it is to Vitiate. Dooku wouldn't have caught up to him even though he had the equivelant of 40 of Vitiates growth, as evidenced when he was only contending with Yoda.
Not at all. The Dooku example works perfectly.
Not really.
Nah. Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow, etc. All have some incredible hype in the TOR encyclopedia; hype that would've logically only been achieved if the historians writting it knew, or had a vague grasp, at how powerful these Sith in question were. And given how the same introduction that notes this is "in-universe" also notes that the historians went into an "in-depth" history that shaped the galaxy in the time of this war. Exar Kun's Great Sith War did in one way or another shape the galaxy, so they'd be very much aware of his power. Did he ever unleash his full power? No, but neither did the Emperor.
Whatever. The ancients are beside the point, anyway. No point in continuing that discussion.
Um, yes he did: on Ziost. And even if he hadn't, that wouldn't prove he is more powerful than Exar Kun, only that he had, in the eyes of the historians, unleashed more power than Kun.
Besides, there's other things that the historians knew of such as the Dark Reaper, which was a weapon more powerful than even Exar Kun, yet it's still noted that the Emperor's powers are "unfathomable" by comparison.
Well, obviously draining a planet is more impressive than draining a moon.
Or maybe it's a, *gasps*, retcon? Happens a lot. Welcome to a fictional franchise. 👆
I don't agree with that mentality. If a secondary source contradicts higher canon, it is incorrect, in my opinion. But for the sake of the discussion, let's accept that it was a retcon, then. I assume you'll accept this is a retcon as well:
The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.
-Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
So Dooku is now in Yoda's and Darth Sidious' tier of power, it seems. So Dooku went from KotOR Revan-level to Yoda-level by reading the Dark Holocron and a decade of additional dark side study. That is the equivelant of several one-shot gaps (Revan got one-shot by Vitiate, who in turn gets one-shot by EoTPM Sidious, and Yoda is even more powerful than that). The idea of the Dark Holocron being so powerful isn't so outlandish anymore, now is it? I don't see any evidence as to why Kun couldn't be above novel Vitiate.
Or you'll just concede the point and accept it wasn't a retcon, and also accept that Kun and Dooku had different holocrons.
Hi ~Yes, Exar Kun was as powerful as Palpatine -- maybe even more powerful. Ulic Qel-Droma became far more powerful than Luke Skywalker -- but then we aren't done with Luke yet, so we will have to wait for episode VIII and IX to find out!
best,
Tom Veitch
PS: I have written a book about Star Wars that is coming out in the next few months. It includes a lot of discussion about the Tales of the Jedi and Dark Empire as well as Ulic and Exar Kun. We will be sending press releases to various Star Wars sites, so I am sure you will hear about it when it comes out.
- Tom Veitch
You can email him at [email protected], but all of this is very interesting.
Exar Kun ~ DE Palpatine
Ulic Qel-Droma >> DE Luke.