Ranking Kanan and Ezra

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=638565

I wonder why Beni is so adamantly defending Maul as having Sidious+ potential when either way it shouldn't be relevant to a vs debate...

Or is this Beni wanting to do some weird ILS-esque scaling and say Sidious+ potential plus Maul being trained as a LEGIT SUCCESSOR plus the length of time he was trained puts him above Bane and virtually everyone before the PT era?

Or is this Beni trying to pull some weird shit and say "Maul has Sidious+ potential and a ****ton of training and experience, and Ahsoka can match him despite having only been formally apprenticed for 3 years with less quality training and possessing much less experience... AHSOKA HAS SIDIOUS++ LEVEL POTENTIAL CONFIRMED"?

LOL

Nah Beni's just discussing Maul's potential because it's interesting why Palpatine chose him and what Palpatine's goal was from his different apprentices, and what the RO2 and Banite lineage meant to him.

Not applicable at all to versus fights because:
1) He never reached said potential
2) Said potential was likely reduced massively after he got cut in 2 anyway

What I find more interesting though is Machine Vader's potential. I'm not convinced his potential didn't rival Sidious's.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah Beni's just discussing Maul's potential because it's interesting why Palpatine chose him and what Palpatine's goal was from his different apprentices, and what the RO2 and Banite lineage meant to him.

Not applicable at all to versus fights because:
1) He never reached said potential
2) Said potential was likely reduced massively after he got cut in 2 anyway

[B]What I find more interesting though is Machine Vader's potential. I'm not convinced his potential didn't rival Sidious's. [/B]

Yeah, I actually believe it probably did still rival Sidious's but his mental 'issues' restricted him from reaching that potential. It's mainly because Sidious still believes that Vader can reach his potential, he didn't loose that much midi-chlorians and that even by the time of RotJ Vader still hadn't learned everything from Sidious.

Well rivalling Sidious's potential is still far off from the potential he had.

Plus I don't buy into his mental issues restricting him in Canon. I just think he's behind Palpatine in Force Mastery and knowledge, which is why he's still his inferior.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well rivalling Sidious's potential is still far off from the potential he had.

Plus I don't buy into his mental issues restricting him in Canon. I just think he's behind Palpatine in Force Mastery and knowledge, which is why he's still his inferior.

Ahh Canon, yeah probably

"Even Vader was unaware of the shrine's existence but it was here that they would one day work together the way Sidious and Plagueis had to coax from the darkside it's final secrets. In the intervening years he had actually come to appreciate Plagueis for the planner and prophet he had been. Such perilous machinations required two sith, one to serve as bait for the darkside the other to be the vessel. Success would grant them the power to harness the full powers of the darkside and allow them to rule for 10,000 years."

On the other hand much as "crippled apprentice" is of key important in the DL quote, "bait" and "vessel" are of equal if not more importance here. That rather heavily implies Palpatine was using him as a tool, with the intentions of keeping all the rewards for himself. The fact also remains that after the Death Star incident, he considered replacing him with robots.

Again, there is little doubt that Palpatine highly valued Vader as an asset, but I'd argue his perspective on Vader was straddled between the power of the Chosen One and the broken cripple he'd been left with. But this hardly means Sidious was content with the latter.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I wonder why Beni is so adamantly defending Maul as having Sidious+ potential when either way it shouldn't be relevant to a vs debate...

Or is this Beni wanting to do some weird ILS-esque scaling and say Sidious+ potential plus Maul being trained as a LEGIT SUCCESSOR plus the length of time he was trained puts him above Bane and virtually everyone before the PT era?

Or is this Beni trying to pull some weird shit and say "Maul has Sidious+ potential and a ****ton of training and experience, and Ahsoka can match him despite having only been formally apprenticed for 3 years with less quality training and possessing much less experience... AHSOKA HAS SIDIOUS++ LEVEL POTENTIAL CONFIRMED"?

Spoiler:
no rly, both 🙂

Like masturbating to Maul porn, which I presume is not the same if he doesn't have Sidious+ potential.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Are you daft? I explained why at the start of this discussion.

I'm assuming you're referring to the crime syndicate thing.

Even if it retcons that one quote, it doesn't mean that it retcons everything in the Book. Especially not because Sidious doesn't refer just to Maul but also Tyranus and Vader.

Novel idea: consider Canon and Legends, at the same time!

It's too bad that this isn't possible because of how much conflict there is. And because it appears that the entire holistic basis of Sidious choosing Maul as an apprentice is different in Legends and Canon.

As far as you know? Can you hit me up with your sources? Because by all accounts Sidious found Maul by accident.

And what Palpatine's later apprentices do is 1. demonstrate his lack of qualm over beings who could surpass/rival him and reflect 2. reflect kind of standard of apprentice he was looking for. No, it doesn't mean Sidious' first apprentice has to be of similar stock, but the question still remains: why wouldn't he be? So far, no good answers. 🙁

Well, nothing happens by accident. The Force ordains all 🙂

Anyway, what I meant was that Palpatine would've been searching for somebody as powerful as possible just based on how he operates. And if you're using the example of his future apprentices, then why wouldn't he be?

"Why wouldn't he be?" is an appeal to ignorance. There's nothing establishing any relationship between Maul and Anakin, Luke or Galen. Just like Tyranus wasn't of the same stock. Until you establish a reason that Maul would belong to such a breed of Force-users, there's no point comparing.

Cool. But who cares? Plagueis never tried to get rid of Sidious anyways and Tenebrous only tried to get rid of Plagueis because of a difference in philosophy, not because he felt he was becoming too powerful.

Well, you brought up the point, so obviously you care.

OK, but you seemed to be rather insistent on the "but in Legends!" point. I'm merely asking why anyone should care. Maul is a Canon character for Christ's sake, its totally bonkers to consider this from a Legends-only point of view, or give a damn what "facts" can be gleaned if we ignore Canon. In fact, its oxymoron, because the Legends regarding Maul are non-factual by definition. Either approach it holistically, with Canon only, or not all imo.

What do you mean "non-factual"? They belong in different continuities. The case being relevant if we're in a Legends thread and are using Legends Maul, in which case the Canon argument doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about me trying to distinguish between Canon and Legends on the matter. They're clearly different. You're crying over how irrelevant Legends is when that has nothing to do with my point, which is simply that Legends and Canon have a different outlook on the matter. Again, we continue to deviate from my original point.

That said, even if we played the Legends-only card, there'd still be no getting away from TCW, which most recent EU/Legends sources were made to align to. Basically Maul is just not Talzin's son, cool. Also in 1999, Maul was just a guy with a lightsaber, the argument is really circumspect if we go that route. 🙂

And yet the newer Legends sources offer nothing on whether or not Sidious intended for Maul to succeed him. Or even just how powerful Maul was.

Points, in general, need reasoning to support them. In which case you've failed to give a solid explanation for why his standard of apprenticeship may have increased. Which makes the point unlikely, if not illogical.

So yeah, consider your point: impacted. 🙂

It means we've no reason to believe his standards suddenly increased.

How would training more powerful apprentices than Maul not make him raise his standard of apprentices? For instance, if Maul never had the power to rival or surpass him, but Anakin/Galen/Luke did, then obviously Palpatine's standards would be raised. That's just common sense.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm assuming you're referring to the crime syndicate thing.

Even if it retcons that one quote, it doesn't mean that it retcons everything in the Book. Especially not because Sidious doesn't refer just to Maul but also Tyranus and Vader.

And I never said it did. Ever. 😐

It's too bad that this isn't possible because of how much conflict there is. And because it appears that the entire holistic basis of Sidious choosing Maul as an apprentice is different in Legends and Canon.

Well, nothing happens by accident. The Force ordains all 🙂

Anyway, what I meant was that Palpatine would've been searching for somebody as powerful as possible just based on how he operates. And if you're using the example of his future apprentices, then why wouldn't he be?

"Why wouldn't he be?" is an appeal to ignorance. There's nothing establishing any relationship between Maul and Anakin, Luke or Galen. Just like Tyranus wasn't of the same stock. Until you establish a reason that Maul would belong to such a breed of Force-users, there's no point comparing.

So I am asking why Sidious would opt for anything less. The answer is he wouldn't, there is no reason for him to, not time, expense, fear of overthrowal, lack of conviction, contentment with second rate material. There's no reason to assume Palpatine's choice of an apprentice wouldn't be a being who could emulate his own strength.

Well, you brought up the point, so obviously you care.

What do you mean "non-factual"? They belong in different continuities. The case being relevant if we're in a Legends thread and are using Legends Maul, in which case the Canon argument doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about me trying to distinguish between Canon and Legends on the matter. They're clearly different. You're crying over how irrelevant Legends is when that has nothing to do with my point, which is simply that Legends and Canon have a different outlook on the matter. Again, we continue to deviate from my original point.

Canon as opposed to the EU has creative control over the character, or rather their perspective is the correct one whereas the now Legends EU just followed in its lead. In other words no, Legends doesn't have a different outlook on Maul, its just misaligned (arguably) with the facts in some places. Or not, you haven't really done much to embellish on how Legends is so deviant, other than this BoS quote.

And I understand your point fine, I just think its incorrect, that's all.

And yet the newer Legends sources offer nothing on whether or not Sidious intended for Maul to succeed him. Or even just how powerful Maul was.

How would training more powerful apprentices than Maul not make him raise his standard of apprentices? For instance, if Maul never had the power to rival or surpass him, but Anakin/Galen/Luke did, then obviously Palpatine's standards would be raised. That's just common sense.

Yes I am.

And I never said it did. Ever.

So what does the retcon prove? We're only interested in the part where Sidious had no intention of a successor, not the part where he says Maul is a limited being, because we know he's not.

You're not grasping the point, the point is that logically speaking Sidious should seek out as an apprentice someone worthy of his lineage, someone who could rival his own abilities, it would be entirely in his nature, and his choices in Anakin, Luke and Galen reflect that.

So I am asking why Sidious would opt for anything less. The answer is he wouldn't, there is no reason for him to, not time, expense, fear of overthrowal, lack of conviction, contentment with second rate material. There's no reason to assume Palpatine's choice of an apprentice wouldn't be a being who could emulate his own strength.

Perhaps Sidious didn't even believe somebody could rival his power until he saw the likes of Anakin, Galen, Luke etc.

That he was going for the most powerful candidate available doesn't mean said candidate rivaled him. Just that they were good, which we all know.

Where there is conflict Canon takes precedent tbh.

Canon and Legends are completely separate and should be treated separately. There's no precedence.

How about you start by explaining how it would, because I'm not seeing how this is common sense at all. Palpatine training Anakin/Galen/Luke (he trained none of these people, but let's pretend) is supposed to teach Palpatine what exactly?

My mistake about "training", I meant encountering - but we're basically discussing point 2 again, so refer to that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So what does the retcon prove? We're only interested in the part where Sidious had no intention of a successor, not the part where he says Maul is a limited being, because we know he's not.

Perhaps Sidious didn't even believe somebody could rival his power until he saw the likes of Anakin, Galen, Luke etc.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
His own existence proves that. As does that of his master. Not to mention all of Banite history.

I mean really? Sidious saw Anakin and was like "huh you mean I can have a strwong apprentice like meesa?" He has no reason to believe that finding a protege worthy of his own power is remotely unattainable.

That he was going for the most powerful candidate available doesn't mean said candidate rivaled him. Just that they were good, which we all know.

It's like going into a supermarket looking for a premium pot of pasta sauce and grabbing the first you see off the shelf, you don't do that unless its exactly what your looking for.

Canon and Legends are completely separate and should be treated separately. There's no precedence.

My mistake about "training", I meant encountering - but we're basically discussing point 2 again, so refer to that.

1. You were the one who brought up TCW's retcon, not me. But let's drop the point.

2. Your "address" was an appeal to ignorance. We don't know when he realized somebody who rivaled his power could exist. This is Sidious. He's all about being the most powerful figure. Discovering Anakin could well be sort of shock that told him that there really were beings in the galaxy that could supersede him in power, in which case Maul obviously wouldn't be one of them. As I said, it's just a possibility - we have no way to know with Legends being dead now.

So let's move the point forwards. How can you quantify somebody who's "worthy of his power"? Palpatine is satisfied with what Maul can be become - but does that necessarily mean he can be as powerful as Palpatine? I know you're going to go back to the Plagueis example, but Sidious wasn't interested in ruling as equals with someone else. He desires supremacy and lordship.

For the record, Lucas seems to suggest that Maul could never match or surpass Palpatine in power.

As of right now, Kanan's a barely-above-average Jedi Master and Ezra is an above-average padawan with considerable Force potential. I still think Ezra will be roughly = Maul by the end of the season, if Filoni continues down the path he is setting up for us.

Originally posted by Petrus
As of right now, Kanan's a barely-above-average Jedi Master and Ezra is an above-average padawan with considerable Force potential. I still think Ezra will be roughly = Maul by the end of the season, if Filoni continues down the path he is setting up for us.

I would put Kanan in the sub Qui-Gon area, would that fit your description?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I would put Kanan in the sub Qui-Gon area, would that fit your description?

Eh, maybe, but I'd rank Qui-Gon as more skilled than an above-average master. How sub Qui-Gon are we talking about?

Originally posted by Petrus
Eh, maybe, but I'd rank Qui-Gon as more skilled than an above-average master. How sub Qui-Gon are we talking about?

I was thinking more like this:

7.9 GI
8.0 Kanan
8.3 Qui-Gon
8.8 RotS Obi-Wan

To be honest, Qui-Gon is far above your average Jedi Master (a level which is difficult to determine anyway) since he was considered 'exceptional' even among PT era Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I was thinking more like this:

7.9 GI
8.0 Kanan
8.3 Qui-Gon
8.8 RotS Obi-Wan

To be honest, Qui-Gon is far above your average Jedi Master (a level which is difficult to determine anyway) since he was considered 'exceptional' even among PT era Jedi.

Yeah, Jinn is far above the average, for sure. That's what I mean.

I'd actually say it's more like this:

7.8: Kanan
8.0: GI
8.4: Jinn
8.8: RotS Kenobi

I think the GI's defeat at the hands of Kanan is due to Kanan pulling off a peak performance that he can't pull off on a daily or regular basis.