Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm joking lol, try responding to my serious point. 🙂
I was responding to your notion that they are scrubs, nothing more. If it’s a joke then we’re good.
As for your "serious post", my reply to DP addresses your main point as well.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But nah, Ventress would crush the GI lmao.
Not according to Filoni. 🙂
It doesn't? My point was that Sidious had options and the time to explore them, Talzin was among these, and a very good one, the other being to actually scour the galaxy from potential disciples. Yet he ditched Talzin and forwent a search to immediately apprentice Maul, despite being under no pressure or obligation to do so. You're response to DP has not addressed this I'm afraid.
And I wasn't asking. 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It doesn't? My point was that Sidious had options and the time to explore them, Talzin was among these, and a very good one, the other being to actually scour the galaxy from potential disciples. Yet he ditched Talzin and forwent a search to immediately apprentice Maul, despite being under no pressure or obligation to do so. You're response to DP has not addressed this I'm afraid.And I wasn't asking. 🙂
And as I said, since Sidious went with Maul that means he was obviously a better choice for apprentice than Talzin. You’re also making claims with absolutely no evidence to back them. We have no reason to believe that Palpatine did not search the galaxy for an apprentice. However, even if he did forgo a search that alone does not suggest that Maul has the potential to surpass him.
Not asking what?
Well yeah obviously. 😬
Point is he made significant sacrifices for an individual who is supposedly beneath his standards. If Maul were as such, it would be reckless to sacrifice a valuable asset like Talzin (and in the process make an enemy of her), and violate the Rule of Two, for an expendable short-term apprentice whom he could have potentially found elsewhere if he took the time to look, and didn't really require at the moment.
And yes, given no source has so much as indicated that a through search took place, I'm assuming its a non-existent plot point. Certainly Sidious' backstory isn't want of details since Darth Plagueis.
And even if we did assume such a through exploration of the galaxy occurred, despite it being nowhere detailed in continuity, and that Palpatine had found nothing worth apprenticing, that still wouldn't justify him sacrificing Talzin, violating the Rule of Two, and snatching up Maul, a mere infant, when he was under pressure to do so. He could have instead bode his time, done some more recon, or worked out a way to exploit them both.
Simply put, this is not the behaviour of someone simply scooping up another pawn. This is the behaviour of someone finding just what they wanted, a worthy apprentice, and being prepared to sacrifice a great deal to attain it. Just as Sidious was for the likes of Luke, Marek and Anakin.
And yes, by taking on Maul as his apprentice, with no ulterior motive of exceptional circumstances involved, it's only logical to assume he was worthy of Banite lineage, and in that respect have the potential to at least rival Palpatine's power.
And not asking for Filoni's opinion darl. 😉
Originally posted by SunRazer
According to what? If you're referring to BoS, then he mentions Maul, Tyranus and Vader by name as beings not intended to succeed him, and each having limited use.He actually says that he didn't want Anakin to succeed him, although he did plan for Anakin to be more powerful (strange), and where does he say Marek or Luke were intended to surpass him? He wanted Luke to be his enforcer as he became omnipotent, and he says Marek could've been his equal?
He says Marek could have surpassed him. The equal thing references his becoming Emperor unless we're going by the idea that he contradicts himself in the next sentence.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well yeah obviously. 😬Point is he made significant sacrifices for an individual who is supposedly beneath his standards. If Maul were as such, it would be reckless to sacrifice a valuable asset like Talzin (and in the process make an enemy of her), and violate the Rule of Two, for an expendable short-term apprentice whom he could have potentially found elsewhere if he took the time to look, and didn't really require at the moment.
And yes, given no source has so much as indicated that a through search took place, I'm assuming its a non-existent plot point. Certainly Sidious' backstory isn't want of details since Darth Plagueis.
And even if we did assume such a through exploration of the galaxy occurred, despite it being nowhere detailed in continuity, and that Palpatine had found nothing worth apprenticing, that still wouldn't justify him sacrificing Talzin, violating the Rule of Two, and snatching up Maul, a mere infant, when he was under pressure to do so. He could have instead bode his time, done some more recon, or worked out a way to exploit them both.
Simply put, this is not the behaviour of someone simply scooping up another pawn. This is the behaviour of someone finding just what they wanted, a worthy apprentice, and being prepared to sacrifice a great deal to attain it. Just as Sidious was for the likes of Luke, Marek and Anakin.
And yes, by taking on Maul as his apprentice, with no ulterior motive of exceptional circumstances involved, it's only logical to assume he was worthy of Banite lineage, and in that respect have the potential to at least rival Palpatine's power.
And not asking for Filoni's opinion darl. 😉
It seems we are arguing two different things. I am not saying that Maul “unworthy” or that he was a placeholder like Dooku was. I have been arguing that he does not have the potential to surpass Palpatine.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I am saying that if Sidious considered Maul to be "worthy" of being his apprentice, he should have at least have had the potential to rival his power, just as others he also considered worthy did. Or rather, Palpatine wouldn't make someone his apprentice who was not of that caliber.
Why would he not? In Tarkin we see that he considers Vader worthy of being his apprentice despite the fact that Vader could no longer rival him in power. So clearly being capable of rivaling Sidious is not required to be “worthy†of true apprenticeship to Sidious. As for selecting Maul, Maul had enormous potential even if he could not rival Palpatine in power.
Originally posted by ares834He strokes his ego yeah, but we know that in reality he was training up cyborgs to replace him. Then the next time he gives Vader the "your da greatest" speech, Vader doesn't buy a word of it. And of course, as soon as young Luke comes along, he ditches him at the drop of a hat, then in DE calls him a weak and broken sod, and he did the same in TFU as I recall.
Why would he not? In Tarkin we see that he considers Vader worthy of being his apprentice despite the fact that Vader could no longer rival him in power. So clearly being capable of rivaling Sidious is not required to be “worthy†of true apprenticeship to Sidious. As for selecting Maul, Maul had enormous potential even if he could not rival Palpatine in power.
And let's not forget how easily he discarded Dooku and indeed Talzin despite their "enormous" potential. So naw, there's not really any reason to believe that.
I’m not talking about Sidious stroking Vader’s ego, I’m talking about Sidious’s own internal thoughts. In Tarkin we see Sidious’s ultimate goal and it is for him and Vader to learn how to warp reality and for the two to rule eternally.
And? Clearly he didn’t look too hard for Maul after his “death” either. And when Maul did return he didn’t even contemplate taking him back as apprentice.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
TCW. Maul is described by Sidious as an "animal" incapable of applying himself beyond a "limited" set of tasks. Yet in TCW he masterminds an operation that becomes a threat to Sidious' own designs, and in SoD outmanoeuvres both Grievous and Dooku.
That's probably why Sidious gets surprised, but you're conflating Canon with Legends anyway. And I try not to mingle TCW with the rest of Legends given how little regard TCW shows for continuity.
That said I think that predates BoS, in which case its just inaccurate, or Palpatine is attempting to downplay a failed apprentice.
Comes after BoS.
Not sure how, when its written after Anakin's injuries.
It's also written after Tyranus' death and Maul's fall. Anakin was Vader even before he got into the suit. Palpatine states that "I will never seek a true successor" or something along those lines. That includes Vader in his prime.
Well we appear to be debating a meaningless distinction here, whether or not Sidious wanted a successor or not, the fact remains that he attempted to apprentice beings that could succeed him, if not sought them out.In fact, if we consider those Sidious attempted to make his right hand (without alterior motive) Maul - out of Anakin, Luke, Marek and seemingly Talzin - is the odd one out, despite having been Palpatine's first choice. Why would he lower his standards in this case, unless Maul was of the same stock?
Why would he lower his standards? Because he had no choice? Anakin/Luke weren't options for him, and Talzin would not have been a practical choice as a disciple. Maul was his first, anyhow, so I'm not seeing how his standards were lowered. If anything, his standards simply increased over time.