Ranking Kanan and Ezra

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's probably why Sidious gets surprised, but you're conflating Canon with Legends anyway. And I try not to mingle TCW with the rest of Legends given how little regard TCW shows for continuity.

Regardless, I'm assessing this from Canon mainly, given it gives the most complete, and accurate depiction of Maul.

But yeah, it doesn't make sense, even if Sidious was surprised he's still writing after the events of TCW. Nor does it make sense Sidious would be clueless to Maul being a scheming mastermind either, surely Maul learnt his cunning from his master.

Comes after BoS.

It's also written after Tyranus' death and Maul's fall. Anakin was Vader even before he got into the suit. Palpatine states that "I will never seek a true successor" or something along those lines. That includes Vader in his prime.

Why would he lower his standards? Because he had no choice? Anakin/Luke weren't options for him, and Talzin would not have been a practical choice as a disciple.

Maul was his first, anyhow, so I'm not seeing how his standards were lowered. If anything, his standards simply increased over time.

Well even in Legends Maul is retconned into surviving TPM, so I would say either way things are fundamentally changed. Furthermore, up until the Legends/Canon split, EU material did and was expected to conform to Canon developments. So its still outdated.

The EU isn't going to conform to material in another reality, lol. SoD has no bearing on the EU.

And TCW has always had little regard for the EU, which is why I don't like conflating it with the rest of the EU.

Regardless, I'm assessing this from Canon mainly, given it gives the most complete, and accurate depiction of Maul.

Therein lies the source of our contention. I'm open to its possibility in Canon, but I'm highly suspect of it in Legends.

But yeah, it doesn't make sense, even if Sidious was surprised he's still writing after the events of TCW. Nor does it make sense Sidious would be clueless to Maul being a scheming mastermind either, surely Maul learnt his cunning from his master.

Sidious' standards for cunning probably just weren't met up to TPM. And again, TCW completely disregards Legends (see Adi Gallia being resurrected to be killed by Savage instead, for instance), so honestly, it's not that valid of a mark against BoS.

Fair enough, but as I said, I don't think the distinction is important, as it didn't stop him seeking out people capable of surpassing/succeeding him anyway.

The fact that they're capable of surpassing him doesn't mean he intended for them to surpass him. And thus it doesn't mean that everyone that Palpatine sought out could've surpassed him.

I've already explained to Ares why he had plenty of choice, and time to explore his options. And yes, Talzin was among them, which he evidently considered practical enough to make his right hand

Talzin was never Palpatine's right hand in Legends. And in Legends, we have plenty of reasons as to why Sidious would prefer Maul over Talzin, not just because he was more powerful.

Because there is no reason for his standards to suddenly shoot up.

Maybe because he started seeing even more powerful beings?

I’m not talking about Sidious stroking Vader’s ego, I’m talking about Sidious’s own internal thoughts. In Tarkin we see Sidious’s ultimate goal and it is for him and Vader to learn how to warp reality and for the two to rule eternally.

That said? He still refers to Vader as his "crippled apprentice", but also acknowledges there (and elsewhere) that Vader might possess the capacity to kill him. Altogether it only makes sense that he would keep the Chosen One, whom he'd work so hard attain, close to him, even if he was a cripple.

That makes him valuable certainly, but worthy? Not when it came down to it. Again, he disparaged and cast him off at the drop of a hat.

And? Clearly he didn’t look too hard for Maul after his “death” either. And when Maul did return he didn’t even contemplate taking him back as apprentice.

On the other hand according to Witwer's commentary, it was Maul's survival that inspired Sidious to attempt to rebuild Vader, of course he would have done the same to Maul if he'd known it possible. That's why he was described as a loss

As for whether he contemplated taking Maul back as his apprentice in TCW, that's debatable. He appears to in fact be deliberating over what to do when Maul kneels before him, but the presence of Savage instigates him into branding him a rival (note rival.)

Regardless by that point Sidious already had Dooku who was himself a placeholder for Anakin, Maul could only have ever been another pawn, and no longer necessary to executing the Grand Plan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The EU isn't going to conform to material in another reality, lol. SoD has no bearing on the EU.

And TCW has always had little regard for the EU, which is why I don't like conflating it with the rest of the EU.

And its not a different reality, just a different level of accuracy and validity.

Therein lies the source of our contention. I'm open to its possibility in Canon, but I'm highly suspect of it in Legends.

Sidious' standards for cunning probably just weren't met up to TPM. And again, TCW completely disregards Legends (see Adi Gallia being resurrected to be killed by Savage instead, for instance), so honestly, it's not that valid of a mark against BoS.

And yeah I get it, TCW made the EU its cheap whore, the EU still took it though. The EU did not disregard TCW. Mother Talzin is in the frikken book.

The fact that they're capable of surpassing him doesn't mean he intended for them to surpass him. And thus it doesn't mean that everyone that Palpatine sought out could've surpassed him.

Talzin was never Palpatine's right hand in Legends. And in Legends, we have plenty of reasons as to why Sidious would prefer Maul over Talzin, not just because he was more powerful.

And the point isn't that Sidious choosing Maul over Talzin proves he's more powerful, as I also explained to Ares.

Maybe because he started seeing even more powerful beings?

But seriously, who? And why did he need to "see" these people to prove a being that could rival his power could or did exist?

Could be that Maul's potential, being Talzin's son, was not restricted to pure Force power. Palpatine may have eventually taught him the Dark Side magics and Sorcery he learned from Maul's Mother. Knowing the bloodline of Talzin has greater potential than Palpatine in that aspect.

1. I know TCW is included in Legends. I'm saying it disregards continuity, that's all.

2. How does TCW Maul's existence have any bearing on whether Palpatine intended for Maul to succeed him?

3. Talzin is in the frikkin' book which says Maul was never intended to succeed Sidious, yeah.

4. He did have qualms about genuine successors because he had qualms about dying. That's my point. His apprentices were merely insurances - backups.

5. The fact that Maul isn't chosen relative to Talzin in Legends just casts more doubt over Maul's actual potential in Legends.

6. lol I mean that he started noticing more powerful figures in the galaxy, taking in more powerful apprentices, etc. which would naturally raise his standard of an apprentice.

I didn't say anything about that proving that a being rivalling his power could exist. That had nothing to do with my point.

Most people seem to agree that Kanan and Ezra aren't anything special, well I'll try to make a case to prove the contrary, beginning with Kanan. When we meet Kanan in Season 1 he has been supressing his Force Power since he was roughly 14 years old (a padawan with barely a couple months of training from a Master) so at this point his abilities are limited to what he could as a padawan plus his natural growth over the years (which should be fairly restricted given the fact that he was neglecting his power). Now over the course of the first season his main struggle is accepting he's a Jedi and trying to train Ezra to the point that eventually he can actually contend with the GI to some extent (given that Ezra had to support him because he had been tortured by the GI for some time only speaks to his advantage). When going towards season 2 he's coming more and more forward as a Jedi, apparently fully accepting his powers and utilizing them when necessary while at the same time he's again facing off against several Inquisitor and logically grows stronger with each encounter (something the 5th Brother acknowledges). The general trend we see here is that the more he practices with Ezra and fights Inquisitors, he obviously becoming more powerful and skilled but at the same time he still only possess the same knowledge as when he was a 14 year old padawan so the idea that he can contend with and defeats trained Jedi Hunters (some of which were actually Jedi before falling to the Dark Side) is pretty impressive and most likely makes him above "just average". In season 3 he has been blinded by Maul and needs to see things completely different, he needs to rely purely on the Force which again makes more powerful (he has perfectly replaces his eye-sight with his senses and can even connect to beasts that he previously couldn't). Let me even give you an example of how he has become a quite powerful Jedi, in Hera's Heroes we see him redirecting a missile with the Force, now in the OCW serie from 2003 (which in general is accepted to portray Force Sensitives at the top of their abilities) Mace Windu is asthonished by the fact that Saesee Tiin redirects a missile. So yeah I sincerely doubt that Kanan, especially by the time of season 3, is just "an average Jedi".

I stopped reading after you said Kanan was 14 years old, lmao.

I said he was supressing his power since he was 14 years old lol

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I know TCW is included in Legends. I'm saying it disregards continuity, that's all.

2. How does TCW Maul's existence have any bearing on whether Palpatine intended for Maul to succeed him?

3. Talzin is in the frikkin' book which says Maul was never intended to succeed Sidious, yeah.

4. He did have qualms about genuine successors because he had qualms about dying. That's my point. His apprentices were merely insurances - backups.

5. The fact that Maul isn't chosen relative to Talzin in Legends just casts more doubt over Maul's actual potential in Legends.

6. lol I mean that he started noticing more powerful figures in the galaxy, taking in more powerful apprentices, etc. which would naturally raise his standard of an apprentice.

I didn't say anything about that proving that a being rivalling his power could exist. That had nothing to do with my point.

2. I was referring to BoS specifically. I don't see the purpose in considering Legends only when considering Maul holistically, Canon is simply the most accurate and contemporary window into his character.

3. OK. But it's a moot point.

4. That doesn't answer my question. Despite not wanting an actual successor, Sidious had no qualms in apprenticing beings who could rival and/or surpass him, so in first choosing an apprentice, why would he opt for anything less?

You keep returning to the fact he didn't want a successor, but continue to fail to grasp that this did not effect how he selected his apprentices. And in fact I'd add to this that neither Tenebrous nor Plagueis intended to be succeeded either, and yet they acquired apprentices who rivalled them in potential nonetheless. In short, it's a moot point.

5. Which is why I think going the Legends-only route is counterintuitive, as of now Maul is Talzin's son. It's pointless to ignore that.

6. Still not needed for Palpatine to prove that such beings could exist. His own existence proves that. As does that of his master. Not to mention all of Banite history.

I mean really? Sidious saw Anakin and was like "huh you mean I can have a strwong apprentice like meesa?" He has no reason to believe that finding a protege worthy of his own power is remotely unattainable.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Most people seem to agree that Kanan and Ezra aren't anything special, well I'll try to make a case to prove the contrary, beginning with Kanan. When we meet Kanan in Season 1 he has been supressing his Force Power since he was roughly 14 years old (a padawan with barely a couple months of training from a Master) so at this point his abilities are limited to what he could as a padawan plus his natural growth over the years (which should be fairly restricted given the fact that he was neglecting his power). Now over the course of the first season his main struggle is accepting he's a Jedi and trying to train Ezra to the point that eventually he can actually contend with the GI to some extent (given that Ezra had to support him because he had been tortured by the GI for some time only speaks to his advantage). When going towards season 2 he's coming more and more forward as a Jedi, apparently fully accepting his powers and utilizing them when necessary while at the same time he's again facing off against several Inquisitor and logically grows stronger with each encounter (something the 5th Brother acknowledges). The general trend we see here is that the more he practices with Ezra and fights Inquisitors, he obviously becoming more powerful and skilled but at the same time he still only possess the same knowledge as when he was a 14 year old padawan so the idea that he can contend with and defeats trained Jedi Hunters (some of which were actually Jedi before falling to the Dark Side) is pretty impressive and most likely makes him above "just average". In season 3 he has been blinded by Maul and needs to see things completely different, he needs to rely purely on the Force which again makes more powerful (he has perfectly replaces his eye-sight with his senses and can even connect to beasts that he previously couldn't). Let me even give you an example of how he has become a quite powerful Jedi, in Hera's Heroes we see him redirecting a missile with the Force, now in the OCW serie from 2003 (which in general is accepted to portray Force Sensitives at the top of their abilities) Mace Windu is asthonished by the fact that Saesee Tiin redirects a missile. So yeah I sincerely doubt that Kanan, especially by the time of season 3, is just "an average Jedi".

Paragraphs motherf-ucker.

Originally posted by SunRazer

5. The fact that Maul isn't chosen relative to Talzin in Legends just casts more doubt over Maul's actual potential in Legends.

Wait what? So Legends adopts TCW but not SOD? That's messed up.

Honestly I don't know why we even discuss Legends anymore when it comes to debating concepts like this in SW. Because Legends makes no sense whatsoever. It's basically just material out there that creators of new Canon can draw from. Outside of that, it's a confused continuity to say the least.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Wait what? So Legends adopts TCW but not SOD? That's messed up.

Honestly I don't know why we even discuss Legends anymore when it comes to debating concepts like this in SW. Because Legends makes no sense whatsoever. It's basically just material out there that creators of new Canon can draw from. Outside of that, it's a confused continuity to say the least.

SoD was released from after the Legends/Canon split.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Right. So in other words TCW disproved/retconned Sheev's BoS comments, or otherwise made them highly circumspect. Because TCW applies to Legends.

How did it retcon anything?

2. I was referring to BoS specifically. I don't see the purpose in considering Legends only when considering Maul holistically, Canon is simply the most accurate and contemporary window into his character.

Well, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to argue the case in Canon - or at least it's a lot stronger. In Legends, as I said, it's dubious, and that was my point of contention the entire time.

4. That doesn't answer my question. Despite not wanting an actual successor, Sidious had no qualms in apprenticing beings who could rival and/or surpass him, so in first choosing an apprentice, why would he opt for anything less?

As far as I know, he was just looking for whoever was strongest and available. That the later ones had enough potential to rival him doesn't mean the first one does, because there's no direct relationship between any of them.

You keep returning to the fact he didn't want a successor, but continue to fail to grasp that this did not effect how he selected his apprentices. And in fact I'd add to this that neither Tenebrous nor Plagueis intended to be succeeded either, and yet they acquired apprentices who rivalled them in potential nonetheless. In short, it's a moot point.

Whether Tenebrous or Plagueis intended to be succeeded at the start of their Dark Lordship is questionable, since we only know what their plans were by the end (for Tenebrous, at least). I can't remember when Plagueis gets that idea.

5. Which is why I think going the Legends-only route is counterintuitive, as of now Maul is Talzin's son. It's pointless to ignore that.

There's nothing counter-intuitive. I'm already on your side in Canon. I just made a remark that in Legends, it's not so obvious. And that DP itself doesn't make it obvious that Palpatine intended Maul to surpass him from the get-go.

You decided to introduce all of this other stuff that continues to deviate from my original point.

6. Still not needed for Palpatine to prove that such beings could exist. His own existence proves that. As does that of his master. Not to mention all of Banite history.

I mean really? Sidious saw Anakin and was like "huh you mean I can have a strwong apprentice like meesa?" He has no reason to believe that finding a protege worthy of his own power is remotely unattainable.

Which in no way impacts my point, which, as I'll remind you again, was simply that Palpatine's standard of apprenticeship may have risen over time as he trained more powerful disciples.

Whether Sidious believes it's possible for someone to rival his power doesn't even affect whether Maul was indeed somebody of that caliber, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How did it retcon anything?

Are you daft? I explained why at the start of this discussion.

Well, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to argue the case in Canon - or at least it's a lot stronger. In Legends, as I said, it's dubious, and that was my point of contention the entire time.

As far as I know, he was just looking for whoever was strongest and available. That the later ones had enough potential to rival him doesn't mean the first one does, because there's no direct relationship between any of them.

And what Palpatine's later apprentices do is 1. demonstrate his lack of qualm over beings who could surpass/rival him and reflect 2. reflect kind of standard of apprentice he was looking for. No, it doesn't mean Sidious' first apprentice has to be of similar stock, but the question still remains: why wouldn't he be? So far, no good answers. 🙁

Whether Tenebrous or Plagueis intended to be succeeded at the start of their Dark Lordship is questionable, since we only know what their plans were by the end (for Tenebrous, at least). I can't remember when Plagueis gets that idea.

There's nothing counter-intuitive. I'm already on your side in Canon. I just made a remark that in Legends, it's not so obvious. And that DP itself doesn't make it obvious that Palpatine intended Maul to surpass him from the get-go.

You decided to introduce all of this other stuff that continues to deviate from my original point.

That said, even if we played the Legends-only card, there'd still be no getting away from TCW, which most recent EU/Legends sources were made to align to. Basically Maul is just not Talzin's son, cool. Also in 1999, Maul was just a guy with a lightsaber, the argument is really circumspect if we go that route. 🙂

Which in no way impacts my point, which, as I'll remind you again, was simply that Palpatine's standard of apprenticeship may have risen over time as he trained more powerful disciples.

So yeah, consider your point: impacted. 🙂

Whether Sidious believes it's possible for someone to rival his power doesn't even affect whether Maul was indeed somebody of that caliber, either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not Tarkin, that's Dark Lord...

No, it's definitely in Tarkin though it could be in DL as well.

Maybe provide the quote, I'm seeing something to that effect but he says nothing of Vader.

“Even Vader was unaware of the shrine's existence but it was here that they would one day work together the way Sidious and Plagueis had to coax from the darkside it's final secrets. In the intervening years he had actually come to appreciate Plagueis for the planner and prophet he had been. Such perilous machinations required two sith, one to serve as bait for the darkside the other to be the vessel. Success would grant them the power to harness the full powers of the darkside and allow them to rule for 10,000 years.”

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I said he was supressing his power since he was 14 years old lol

I didn't put the emphasis on the since correctly. I thought of since as a reason(i.e. A beats B since A is better) not as a measure of a time period.

Originally posted by MythLord
I didn't put the emphasis on the since correctly. I thought of since as a reason(i.e. A beats B since A is better) not as a measure of a time period.

Ohh yeah I see, well my native language isn't english so sometimes I don't recognize these type of things 😛