Bane vs. Crossbones

Originally posted by FrothByte
Meh, doesn't really matter if Bane is as strong as you say. If Rumlow fights anything like the other top SHIELD agents we've seen then Bane's strength won't stop him from getting outfought. Won't be an easy fight but Bane and Batman are too low on the skill scale compared to other movie fighters to pose much of a fight in these mvf matches.

Because it isn't just Bane that is stronger than Rumlow. Baleman is also stronger than Rumlow. A relatively green Baleman one arm curled Liam Neeson's 200+ pound fat ass with a single arm and threw him over the top of him. This is a level of strength well beyond what his build should allow (though I don't know if it's outright superhuman). Batman couldn't hurt Bane with his best hits (even in his second fight), at least until he ****ed with Bane's mask (which Rumlow will not be able to do, Batman did it using his forearm blades for leverage, Rumlow will open himself up to a serious hurting if he tries to do the same with his bare hands).

And considering Bane is much larger than Rumlow (their actors are roughly the same height, with Hardy actually being an inch shorter, but Bane was filmed to actually be a few inches taller than Christian Bale, look at near the start of the video* I posted, Bane is noticeably taller), he should have more reach, which would make it harder for Rumlow to land blows on Bane without retaliation.

I'm also frankly not sure why people think Rumlow is faster or particularly more skilled. This is a character whose best feat is getting dominated by a pained, audibly winded Cap. He landed one blow against him with a weapon. I don't see why Bane couldn't do the same.

Why are they too low on the skill scale? Because the choreography was bad? Lol, it's weird that I only see this criticism applied to the Dark Knight trilogy characters, and not characters in Star Wars, or Achilles in Troy (who is in fact an awful sword-fighter per the choreography).

Originally posted by FrothByte
being able to keep up with an enhanced super soldier

And he still landed one blow before being unceremoniously knocked out, lol.

I'd understand the credit you guys were giving Bane's opponent if it were Batroc, who actually did make Cap have to work for it a little bit, but Rumlow? Not really.

He doesn't get to benefit from people like Black Widow's feats.

*So I just realized that in my prior post the video of the one-handed chokeslam and of the Bane fight I timestamped didn't work properly.

First, the chokeslam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEg9KAHJrnQ

Then, the Bane fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDuetklFtDQ

Should work now.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Do you have any reason to believe Rumlow can even do much to physically harm Bane?

Because it isn't just Bane that is stronger than Rumlow. Baleman is also stronger than Rumlow. A relatively green Baleman one arm curled Liam Neeson's 200+ pound fat ass with a single arm and threw him over the top of him. This is a level of strength well beyond what his build should allow (though I don't know if it's outright superhuman). Batman couldn't hurt Bane with his best hits (even in his second fight), at least until he ****ed with Bane's mask (which Rumlow will not be able to do, Batman did it using his forearm blades for leverage, Rumlow will open himself up to a serious hurting if he tries to do the same with his bare hands).

And considering Bane is much larger than Rumlow (their actors are roughly the same height, with Hardy actually being an inch shorter, but Bane was filmed to actually be a few inches taller than Christian Bale, look at near the start of the video* I posted, Bane is noticeably taller), he should have more reach, which would make it harder for Rumlow to land blows on Bane without retaliation.

I'm also frankly not sure why people think Rumlow is faster or particularly more skilled. This is a character whose best feat is getting dominated by a pained, audibly winded Cap. He landed one blow against him with a weapon. I don't see why Bane couldn't do the same.

Why are they too low on the skill scale? Because the choreography was bad? Lol, it's weird that I only see this criticism applied to the Dark Knight trilogy characters, and not characters in Star Wars, or Achilles in Troy (who is in fact an awful sword-fighter per the choreography).

First off, Achilles had superb sword choreography in Troy. One of the best sword choreographies in cinema actually. I'm willing to debate this with you point for point if you want.

And yes, Bane and Batman are low in the skill ladder because the choreography in the TDK trilogy is just bad, which means both of them look very slow compared to other fighters. Plus their moves aren't exactly finesse as well. I mean, Bane throws a bunch of haymakers, wow. Fact is, Baleman and Bane just look slow compared to other fighters.

Now as for Rumlow, watch Agents of SHIELD to understand just how skilled high end SHIELD agents are. Even if Bane is as strong as you think he, it won't protect him from getting his limbs getting dislocated or getting caught in a chokehold or getting his bones snapped. All of which are moves that SHIELD agents have been shown to utilize with far more efficiency than Batman or Bane have ever shown to fight against.

Bane had multiple shots where he's shown smaller than Batman. I will assume his height is the same height as the actor because they never really consistently portrayed him as being much bigger. In which case size isn't an issue.

Originally posted by FrothByte
First off, Achilles had superb sword choreography in Troy. One of the best sword choreographies in cinema actually. I'm willing to debate this with you point for point if you want.

And yes, Bane and Batman are low in the skill ladder because the choreography in the TDK trilogy is just bad, which means both of them look very slow compared to other fighters. Plus their moves aren't exactly finesse as well. I mean, Bane throws a bunch of haymakers, wow. Fact is, Baleman and Bane just look slow compared to other fighters.

Now as for Rumlow, watch Agents of SHIELD to understand just how skilled high end SHIELD agents are. Even if Bane is as strong as you think he, it won't protect him from getting his limbs getting dislocated or getting caught in a chokehold or getting his bones snapped. All of which are moves that SHIELD agents have been shown to utilize with far more efficiency than Batman or Bane have ever shown to fight against.

Bane had multiple shots where he's shown smaller than Batman. I will assume his height is the same height as the actor because they never really consistently portrayed him as being much bigger. In which case size isn't an issue.

Not to mention the OP doesn't state hth only, so standard gear applies.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Not to mention the OP doesn't state hth only, so standard gear applies.

Yeah then I guess he'd win in that scenario.

No but really, timestamp what you wanted me to see in the video you posted.

They both get their standard gear, I don't see the problem.

Originally posted by FrothByte
First off, Achilles had superb sword choreography in Troy. One of the best sword choreographies in cinema actually. I'm willing to debate this with you point for point if you want.

No need, I already know for a fact that swinging your blade into your opponent's blade, while looking nice, is a very ineffective way to fight with a sword. I also know that showing your back to your opponent in a fight just opens yourself up to being stabbed in the back, even though Hector didn't take advantage of Achilles doing so. I also know that doing a leaping stab with a ****ing spear against an opponent with a spear and shield is so laughably stupid (because it would be very easy to let the spear slide down your raised shield and open them up to a stab) that it was, once again, only Hector's own lack of skill that led to it working. Plus, neither (mostly Hector) really have their shield raised for much of the fight, and Achilles makes several strikes that must have been aimed at the shield. It's flynning, are you familiar with the concept?

I'm not necessarily saying the choreography is bad (it's not, it's pretty fun to watch), but it's certainly not representative of an actual skilled combatant.

And yes, Bane and Batman are low in the skill ladder because the choreography in the TDK trilogy is just bad, which means both of them look very slow compared to other fighters. Plus their moves aren't exactly finesse as well. I mean, Bane throws a bunch of haymakers, wow. Fact is, Baleman and Bane just look slow compared to other fighters.

Compared to who?

Not to Rumlow, that's for sure. No matter how slow the windup for Baleman's punches are (and that's the reason they do sometimes appear so slow, it's because of the wind-up), Bane easily caught a thrown punch from Batman despite being grappled, which easily puts his reflexes on the level to react to Rumlow's assault.

Don't get it twisted, I wouldn't say Bane is as fast as a film movie combatant like, say, Black Widow. But luckily Rumlow doesn't actually have any real film showings to give him such prestige.

Now as for Rumlow, watch Agents of SHIELD to understand just how skilled high end SHIELD agents are. Even if Bane is as strong as you think he, it won't protect him from getting his limbs getting dislocated or getting caught in a chokehold or getting his bones snapped. All of which are moves that SHIELD agents have been shown to utilize with far more efficiency than Batman or Bane have ever shown to fight against.

I'm not going to watch a bad show to get feats for characters that aren't Rumlow. Stop using other people's feats for him. We've seen him beat up a guy with no notable hand to hand skill (while not looking particularly impressive doing it), and land a single ineffectual blow on a winded, wounded Captain America, before being easily bodied.

Bane had multiple shots where he's shown smaller than Batman. I will assume his height is the same height as the actor because they never really consistently portrayed him as being much bigger. In which case size isn't an issue.

http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(Tom_Hardy)

"Tom Hardy stands around 5'9"/5'10" (depending on the source) while Christian Bale is 6'0". Since Bane towers over Batman in height in the comics, special film techniques were used to make Hardy's stature and figure appear larger and imposing. In particular, three-inch lifts were added to Hardy's boots to make him equal in height to other tall characters."

http://metro.co.uk/2011/09/13/tom-hardy-needs-height-boosting-shoes-on-batman-the-dark-knight-rises-148479/

Originally posted by h1a8
When everyone watched the movie, NO ONE ever said to themselves that wasn't real concrete. We all were amazed of how powerful Bane was. All of us!

Wow, seriously? You actually think you speak for everyone who watched that scene?

Rumlow landed more than one blow against Cap. During their one-on-one, at the end of the elevator scene, he landed two. And he was also the only one who landed a stun baton strike earlier (he was the only one to land a hit at all, actually, unless you count people piling on Steve as a group as "hits"😉. Also, technically, Brock's fight from Civil War is actually usable, where speed is concerned, seeing as there is no evidence that wearing heavy metal piston arms, as well as heavy body armour, somehow magically made him faster. And there is also zero evidence in the Civil War prequel comic that he was given speed enhancement during his hospital treatment, after getting squashed by the falling helicarrier.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Rumlow landed more than one blow against Cap. During their one-on-one, at the end of the elevator scene, he landed two.

Yeah you're right he did land two, good catch.

And he was also the only one who landed a stun baton strike earlier (he was the only one to land a hit at all, actually, unless you count people piling on Steve as a group as "hits"😉.

Incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqIBGEcKhGs

Check 1:54, some bald dude tases him as well. In fact, he tases him for several seconds. Later Rumlow also tases him for several seconds.

Also, technically, Brock's fight from Civil War is actually usable, where speed is concerned, seeing as there is no evidence that wearing heavy metal piston arms, as well as heavy body armour, somehow magically made him faster. And there is also zero evidence in the Civil War prequel comic that he was given speed enhancement during his hospital treatment, after getting squashed by the falling helicarrier.

I haven't seen CW but I just watched their fight scene.

So you think that the guy who was dominated by Cap with one arm was secretly fast enough to keep pace with him using two the whole time? Is that what you're saying?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah you're right he did land two, good catch.

Incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqIBGEcKhGs

Check 1:54, some bald dude tases him as well. In fact, he tases him for several seconds. Later Rumlow also tases him for several seconds.

I missed that one. You are right. But the notable thing is that he only managed to taser him while several people were holding him down. Out of 10 guys, Rumlow was the only one who managed to land hits while taking him on 1-on-1. And Cap was hardly in terrible shape, even after the entire fight. He still took a multi-storey drop and killed a quinjet right after that, and seemed no real worse for wear at the end of it all.

This happens very shortly after the elevator fight, and his plummet to the ground afterwards:

YouTube video

Originally posted by NemeBro
I haven't seen CW but I just watched their fight scene.

So you think that the guy who was dominated by Cap with one arm was secretly fast enough to keep pace with him using two the whole time? Is that what you're saying?

He showed himself fast enough to dodge a hit from Cap in the elevator scene, so why not? The difference being Brock had much better durability in CW than he had in TWS (as well as the piston arms to help him in the strength department), so the hits he did take he could handle much better, causing the fight to go on longer, and giving him more opportunities to showcase his overall speed. If he took two punches to the face without his dead nerves and helmet, the fight would have ended right then and there. As I have stated, we are shown zero information at all, even in the prequel comic (where he features prominently), to suggest that Rumlow had his speed enhanced in between films.

Plus, I have already stated more than once that I am not convinced that pre-CW Crossbones could take Bane. He has virtually no durability showings of note, so we have no idea if he could take Bane's punches and keep fighting.

Originally posted by FrothByte
He pulled this crap with the Miyagi thread. Said that his proof that the beer bottles were empty were because these were obviously prop bottles used in the movie set. Who the hell debates like this in a movie fight forum?

His post is pretty ironic, considering he claims other people "downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly" when this is something he is constantly guilty of. In this very thread, he tried to downplay Cap by ignoring Rumlow's enhanced attributes for their CW fight, and then tried to compare Brock's super strong punches to RL human kicks.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
His post is pretty ironic, considering he claims other people "downplay and discredit feats and not treat both characters fairly" when this is something he is constantly guilty of. In this very thread, he tried to downplay Cap by ignoring Rumlow's enhanced attributes for their CW fight, and then tried to compare Brock's super strong punches to RL human kicks.

This is proof that you are bias and thus a horrible debater. He said I argued that the bottles were empty because they were prop bottles. This is false. My argument was that since they were empty prop bottles then they were meant to be empty.

But I don't argue that anymore. I'm more strict now. They were empty because they were multiple of them and the drinkers were drinking a fresh bottle.

If you look at the video I posted you will see the stone marble column as it is meant to be (before Bane punches it). The whole column CHANGED from true concrete and marble to a prop version so that Bane can appear to bust it.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is proof that you are bias and thus a horrible debater. He said I argued that the bottles were empty because they were prop bottles. This is false. My argument was that since they were empty prop bottles then they were meant to be empty.

But I don't argue that anymore. I'm more strict now. They were empty because they were multiple of them and the drinkers were drinking a fresh bottle.

If you look at the video I posted you will see the stone marble column as it is meant to be (before Bane punches it). The whole column CHANGED from true concrete and marble to a prop version so that Bane can appear to bust it.

This is proof that you're not very bright, and the worst debater I have encountered in a long time, seeing as I said absolutely nothing about your prop bottle argument, but was referring to a comment you made in this specific thread, which I even quoted. And, as already pointed out, faux concrete exists in RL, and is made to look exactly like the real thing.

Also, LOL at you accusing anyone on this board of being biased (not 'bias', learn to use the correct form of the word). You, who do things like only ever use your "fluctuating power levels" argument when feats of people you are arguing against are being discussed, in order to downplay them. Not to mention your antics in this thread, which I have already pointed out in the post you quoted.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No need, I already know for a fact that swinging your blade into your opponent's blade, while looking nice, is a very ineffective way to fight with a sword. I also know that showing your back to your opponent in a fight just opens yourself up to being stabbed in the back, even though Hector didn't take advantage of Achilles doing so. I also know that doing a leaping stab with a ****ing spear against an opponent with a spear and shield is so laughably stupid (because it would be very easy to let the spear slide down your raised shield and open them up to a stab) that it was, once again, only Hector's own lack of skill that led to it working. Plus, neither (mostly Hector) really have their shield raised for much of the fight, and Achilles makes several strikes that must have been aimed at the shield. It's flynning, are you familiar with the concept?

I'm not necessarily saying the choreography is bad (it's not, it's pretty fun to watch), but it's certainly not representative of an actual skilled combatant. [/url]

You're confusing good choreography and realistic choreography. I never claimed his sword skills to be realistic, I said he had one of the best sword choreographies in cinema.

But even taking realism into account, let me address your points. The reason this amount of flashy swordsmanship would be hard to do in the real world is that it is too dangerous. However, if someone was able to pull off the moves he did in a real fight and succeeded in winning, that would automatically show just how good a swordsman that person was. Which means for Achillles to actually pull off those moves and not get skewered in the process, he'd need to be extremely good - which he is.

Turning your back on your opponent is dangerous but it is not unheard of. Either you're stupid to turn your back or you're very confident that you can pull it off. Guess which one Achilles is. The fact that he can turn his back on an opponent and still not get killed is a sign, again, of how skilled he is. After all, he blocked an arrow from his back without even looking.

Now, I do HEMA, so I do have some 1st hand experience in swordfighting. First thing, keeping your shield up all the time is an easy way to tire fast. An experienced fighter will only lift it when he comes into measure (distance) of being struck. An even better fighter will only lift it to actually block (or strike or limit the opponent's openings). Lifting it without a purpose is just a waste of energy. It also makes it very hard to strike with your sword when your shield is up, especially with shields as big as these. So in short, your suggestion to always keep the shield up is something only done either in a shieldwall or by a rookie in a duel.

As for your thoughts on a jumping spear attack, deflecting a spear attack isn't made easier just because the person is jumping. You still need to time it properly, and it will also depend on how strong and precise your attacker's hit is. It's also advantageous to strike from above. The main disadvantage is that your footwork is gone and you'll be unable to change position for a second while you're airborn. That can be dangerous. Unless of course you're extremely confident in your skill, or if you can strike so hard that your opponent is knocked off balance (which is what happened). So while I agree that a jumping attack is dangerous, it only goes to show how good Achilles is.

Anyway to finish this off, it's ridiculous to say the choreography was bad because it was unrealistic. While a bit of realism is good in a movie fight, too much realism will make it boring.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Compared to who?

Not to Rumlow, that's for sure. No matter how slow the windup for Baleman's punches are (and that's the reason they do sometimes appear so slow, it's because of the wind-up), Bane easily caught a thrown punch from Batman despite being grappled, which easily puts his reflexes on the level to react to Rumlow's assault.

Don't get it twisted, I wouldn't say Bane is as fast as a film movie combatant like, say, Black Widow. But luckily Rumlow doesn't actually have any real film showings to give him such prestige.

I'm not going to watch a bad show to get feats for characters that aren't Rumlow. Stop using other people's feats for him. We've seen him beat up a guy with no notable hand to hand skill (while not looking particularly impressive doing it), and land a single ineffectual blow on a winded, wounded Captain America, before being easily bodied.

http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(Tom_Hardy)

"Tom Hardy stands around 5'9"/5'10" (depending on the source) while Christian Bale is 6'0". Since Bane towers over Batman in height in the comics, special film techniques were used to make Hardy's stature and figure appear larger and imposing. In particular, three-inch lifts were added to Hardy's boots to make him equal in height to other tall characters."

http://metro.co.uk/2011/09/13/tom-hardy-needs-height-boosting-shoes-on-batman-the-dark-knight-rises-148479/

Vault already answered this. Rumlow (as Crossbones) kept up with Cap in Civil War. There was no mention of him getting a speed enhancement which means Rumlow keeping up with an enhanced super soldier is far more impressive than Bane keeping up with an old, out of shape Batman.

You're also exaggerating the elevator scene. Cap was was not wounded and though he was breathing hard due to exertion, he was showing no signs of being tired. . And Rumlow was able to block and dodge Cap's blows. In fact in their brief exchange, he landed the first two shots. The reason he didn't win that fight wasn't due to a skill or speed deficiency, he simply got overpowered by Cap.

Also if you watch Agents of SHIELD, you'll see that even rookie agents display better fighting skills than Batman.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is proof that you're not very bright, and the worst debater I have encountered in a long time, seeing as I said absolutely nothing about your prop bottle argument, but was referring to a comment you made in this specific thread, which I even quoted. And, as already pointed out, faux concrete exists in RL, and is made to look exactly like the real thing.

Also, LOL at you accusing anyone on this board of being biased (not 'bias', learn to use the correct form of the word). You, who do things like only ever use your "fluctuating power levels" argument when feats of people you are arguing against are being discussed, in order to downplay them. Not to mention your antics in this thread, which I have already pointed out in the post you quoted.

You agreed with a false assessment.

Originally posted by h1a8
You agreed with a false assessment.

Quote the words where I agreed with the content of that post relating to your prop bottle argument.

Originally posted by h1a8
If you look at the video I posted you will see the stone marble column as it is meant to be (before Bane punches it). The whole column CHANGED from true concrete and marble to a prop version so that Bane can appear to bust it.

That's the point of faux solid columns. To look like they are solid but in fact they are not. And are not made of the material they appear to be made of. Good job noticing that and describing exactly what faux decorative objects purpose is.

If Captain America picks up and the a large metal ball that it's bigger than himself in the next movie he apears in that looks like a solid metal ball by all accounts. Then after he throws it at someone it bounces around like it's made of rubber. Would you still think it's a solid metal multi ton ball based on its look, or based on the balls behavior you now know it was most likely a rubber ball painted like metal?

Legit wondering why people keep bringing in feats from Civil war Rumlow, in the OP it's Crossbones pre-suit as of Winter Soldier