Originally posted by carthage
Legit wondering why people keep bringing in feats from Civil war Rumlow, in the OP it's Crossbones pre-suit as of Winter Soldier
Because as far as we know, Rumlow never got any speed or skill enhancement as Crossbones. So him being able to keep up with Cap should translate back to his regular skill and speed as Rumlow.
Originally posted by FrothByteI can accept this. But you are using a double standard (the bottles were empty). We actually don't know if he got an upgrade of some sort. Hell in Captain America: The winter soldier, it never said Bucky was enhanced. We assumed it due to his feats.
Because as far as we know, Rumlow never got any speed or skill enhancement as Crossbones. So him being able to keep up with Cap should translate back to his regular skill and speed as Rumlow.
Anyway it's simple. It's a low showing for Cap. Although Crossbones really didn't do anything to suggest he kept up with Cap.
Originally posted by h1a8
I can accept this. But you are using a double standard (the bottles were empty). We actually don't know if he got an upgrade of some sort. Hell in Captain America: The winter soldier, it never said Bucky was enhanced. We assumed it due to his feats.Anyway it's simple. It's a low showing for Cap. Although Crossbones really didn't do anything to suggest he kept up with Cap.
Not double standards at all, since in the elevator scene Rumlow had no issues in terms of speed and skill in keeping up with Cap. He lost because he lacked the strength and durability. So we have feats both from before and after Crossbones that his speed and skill seemed the same. Besides, what do prop bottles have to do with this?
Bucky - there was an entire flashback scene in CW where they showed how they made more Winter Soldiers and specifically showed how they were enhanced. Did you even watch the movie? 😛
Originally posted by FrothByte
Not double standards at all, since in the elevator scene Rumlow had no issues in terms of speed and skill in keeping up with Cap. He lost because he lacked the strength and durability. So we have feats both from before and after Crossbones that his speed and skill seemed the same. Besides, what do prop bottles have to do with this?Bucky - there was an entire flashback scene in CW where they showed how they made more Winter Soldiers and specifically showed how they were enhanced. Did you even watch the movie? 😛
Do you really need to ask?
Hydra was shown to have started experimenting on Bucky as far back as TFA. It still allowed him to survive a several storey fall off a train, into a frozen lake, which would have killed a completely un-enhanced human. The directors of the actual film referred to Winter Soldier as a "super soldier" in the TWS director's commentary. He was again acknowledged as such, both in CW the film, and in its director's commentary. Rumlow featured in TWS, a prequel comic for Civil War, where he was one of the main characters, and CW (and, by extension, the director's commentaries for both films), yet it was never once even hinted at that he had ANY kind of speed enhancement at any point. All this information has already been supplied, more than once, across multiple threads. Anyone who is still arguing against this is being intentionally obtuse.
Originally posted by FrothByteRumlow was severely outclassed by a one armed tasered gimped Cap. He didn't have any speed to keep up. He didn't keep up at all. Crossbones was also outclassed. I don't see why you say he hung with Cap? He took a few hits in the armored areas, that's it.
Not double standards at all, since in the elevator scene Rumlow had no issues in terms of speed and skill in keeping up with Cap. He lost because he lacked the strength and durability. So we have feats both from before and after Crossbones that his speed and skill seemed the same. Besides, what do prop bottles have to do with this?Bucky - there was an entire flashback scene in CW where they showed how they made more Winter Soldiers and specifically showed how they were enhanced. Did you even watch the movie? 😛
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Hydra was shown to have started experimenting on Bucky as far back as TFA. It still allowed him to survive a several storey fall off a train, into a frozen lake, which would have killed a completely un-enhanced human. The directors of the actual film referred to Winter Soldier as a "super soldier" in the TWS director's commentary. He was again acknowledged as such, both in CW the film, and in its director's commentary. Rumlow featured in TWS, a prequel comic for Civil War, where he was one of the main characters, and CW (and, by extension, the director's commentaries for both films), yet it was never once even hinted at that he had ANY kind of speed enhancement at any point. All this information has already been supplied, more than once, across multiple threads. Anyone who is still arguing against this is being intentionally obtuse.
No one is arguing that he was enhanced. The argument was that in WS there was no indication of him being enhanced other than feats. Documentary isn't film and thus not canon.
Originally posted by h1a8
Rumlow was severely outclassed by a one armed tasered gimped Cap. He didn't have any speed to keep up. He didn't keep up at all. Crossbones was also outclassed. I don't see why you say he hung with Cap? He took a few hits in the armored areas, that's it.
One day you really have to start watching these movies before you debate about them. Trust me, it will help stop making you look foolish.
Watch the end fight in the elevator between Cap and Rumlow. Cap had both of his hands available. Rumlow dodges a punch from Cap and blocks another. Rumlow is able to taser Cap twice before he gets overpowered and thrown to the ceiling. But the fact that Rumlow was actually able to beat Cap to the punch twice in a row shows just how good his reflexes and skills are.
Originally posted by h1a8
No one is arguing that he was enhanced. The argument was that in WS there was no indication of him being enhanced other than feats. Documentary isn't film and thus not canon.
Only if you ignore the scene from TFA where Cap finds Bucky strapped to an experimentation table, in a HYDRA base.
Originally posted by FrothByteNo one watches these scenes critically for feats to argue except fanboys. You obviously rewatched the scene to find things. I saw the movie but use my impressions as my memory.
One day you really have to start watching these movies before you debate about them. Trust me, it will help stop making you look foolish.Watch the end fight in the elevator between Cap and Rumlow. Cap had both of his hands available. Rumlow dodges a punch from Cap and blocks another. Rumlow is able to taser Cap twice before he gets overpowered and thrown to the ceiling. But the fact that Rumlow was actually able to beat Cap to the punch twice in a row shows just how good his reflexes and skills are.
Anyway, dodging or blocking a punch from Cap isn't a feat that proves you are enhanced. Any decent human fighter can do that. It takes less than one third of the speed of a punch to block it. Bottom line: Rum didn't appear beyond an ordinary human in that scene. Impressions are everything in storytelling.
Originally posted by h1a8
No one watches these scenes critically for feats to argue except fanboys. You obviously rewatched the scene to find things. I saw the movie but use my impressions as my memory.Anyway, dodging or blocking a punch from Cap isn't a feat that proves you are enhanced. Any decent human fighter can do that. It takes less than one third of the speed of a punch to block it. Bottom line: Rum didn't appear beyond an ordinary human in that scene. Impressions are everything in storytelling.
While it's true that we all don't remember the movies crystal clear, most of us will review a scene before making such a strong statement like this:
Rumlow was severely outclassed by a one armed tasered gimped Cap
It's just bad debating tactics that are easily disproved which just makes you look silly.
Considering that Cap has enhanced speed and reflexes, and considering that he pretty much finishes every normal human opponent he's faced in one or two hits, being able to beat him to the punch twice is a huge accomplishment for an unenhanced human. This should be common sense.
Also, lol at using less than a third of a punch's speed to block it. I see you've never actually tried to block a proper punch. There's a reason why boxers keep their hands up all the time... because it's ridiculously hard to block a punch. Easier to just keep your hands up as constant defense.
Originally posted by h1a8
There is no evidence that they did anything. Bucky wasn't shown to be enhanced right after that. He was the same.
He survived a drop that would have killed a regular human at the end of TFA. The sheer fact that he was still alive in TWS is a clear indication that they did something to him, even then.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Considering that Cap has enhanced speed and reflexes, and considering that he pretty much finishes every normal human opponent he's faced in one or two hits, being able to beat him to the punch twice is a huge accomplishment for an unenhanced human. This should be common sense.
How quickly Cap or Bucky has taken out other human opponents doesn't matter to H1. He wants to judge them based on how long elite humans last against them, while basing Baleman's (and, by extension, Bane's) skill and speed on how he handles random fodder, while ignoring how people like Ra's (a non-fodder opponent) performed against him.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
How quickly Cap or Bucky has taken out other human opponents doesn't matter to H1. He wants to judge them based on how long elite humans last against them, while basing Baleman's (and, by extension, Bane's) skill and speed on how he handles random fodder, while ignoring how people like Ra's (a non-fodder opponent) performed against him.
Even Joker gave Batman a hard time. And I've pointed this out to him multiple times but he keeps ignoring it.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerI disagree. They obviously found him a little bit after he plunged into the water. They could have did something then.
He survived a drop that would have killed a regular human at the end of TFA. The sheer fact that he was still alive in TWS is a clear indication that they did something to him, even then.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerBatman is elite so my comparison is fair. My point is you guys are wanking WA and Cap far beyond the truth of things.
How quickly Cap or Bucky has taken out other human opponents doesn't matter to H1. He wants to judge them based on how long elite humans last against them, while basing Baleman's (and, by extension, Bane's) skill and speed on how he handles random fodder, while ignoring how people like Ra's (a non-fodder opponent) performed against him.
Originally posted by FrothByteA child could give Batman or Cap a hard time if there is a plot device. Doesn't take anything away from Batman or Cap. Joker couldn't last a hit second in a straight h2h fight against Batman.
Even Joker gave Batman a hard time. And I've pointed this out to him multiple times but he keeps ignoring it.