DOS Doomsday vs Thor

Originally posted by darthgoober
A kryptonian who's power reserves are depleted takes time to come back up to full power. Supes himself demonstrated this after DD "killed" him. DD's lack of bone protrusions when he came out of the ground is enough to show that he wasn't quite the same guy who tore through the GL corp.

Doomsday isn't a kryptonian though. He was never stated to be weakened during DOS.

I didn't even mention the ring so I'm really not seeing your point here.

What are you talking about?

And I consider his saying that DD was stronger than Lobo to be totally creditable. Now as for PC Krytonians there wasn't a direct comparison made but I don't even have a problem with that kind of extrapolation either as long it's taken with the logical grain of salt. Hell Kryptonians had already started being portrayed on a more reasonable level for a while even before COIE went down.

Yeah, look at SBP and how reasonably he was portrayed ,right?

Pre crisis kryptonians were at least skyfather range in strength.

As for him KOing Warrior easily after that, Supes got upgraded after the DOS saga.

Then how is it that he was never able to ko even weaker versions of Doomsday?

Supes himself was outright stronger than he had been when he fought DD so his KOing someone who was stronger than DD isn't that much of a stretch. Especially since he only noted that Warrior was stronger than DD, not necessarily more durable.

He didn't say Warrior was stronger than Doomsday though. But hey, double standards always work for you.

So Superman>Warrior>Doomsday>Pre crisis kryptonians>Lobo?

Looking good for Superman there.

Sure why not.

Think harder.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He wasn't totally absent of solar energy in HP, there were still stars and such around. He was totally absent while in the suit underground. As his skin was exposed, the protrusions grew. Now you can say it's simply artist error, but given all we now know about DD it makes more logical sense to acknowledge that he was physically less evolved than he was when he fought the GL corp.

The fact of the matter is that when the DOS saga came out, NO ONE(including the writers) actually knew what direction DD was going to be taken. He was simply the mysterious guy that was created solely to kill Supes. Everything released since the DOS saga has been purposed towards explaining the guy in the original arc. That's why later revelations about the source of his powers are so important.

Either we are debating assuming canon or debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon.
If canon then DD had full protrusions before DOS. Thus he always had them.

If we are debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon then there is no mention that DD even got his powers from the sun or what he actually was. So the theory that sunlight caused him to grow protrusions is unfounded.

Writer's either didn't know what direction to go (his real appearance) at first or they simply wanted to keep it a secret.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The ring was vaporized by the blast.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And to counter that bit, we've seen Supes fly THROUGH a red sun against SBP and neither of them died from being totally "powerless" before they reached the other side.

And saying that DD wasn't going all out... the guy's destruction personified who's ALWAYS going for the kill. He never going anything shy of "all out".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Doomsday isn't a kryptonian though. He was never stated to be weakened during DOS.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What are you talking about?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, look at SBP and how reasonably he was portrayed ,right?

Pre crisis kryptonians were at least skyfather range in strength.

Power Girl is a Pre Crisis Kryptonian too, not every PC Kryptonian is the equal of Silver Age Supes at the zenith of his portrayals of power.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then how is it that he was never able to ko even weaker versions of Doomsday?

I seem to remember him absolutely trouncing Brainiac in HP DD's body.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He didn't say Warrior was stronger than Doomsday though. But hey, double standards always work for you.

So Superman>Warrior>Doomsday>Pre crisis kryptonians>Lobo?

Looking good for Superman there.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Think harder.

Originally posted by h1a8
Either we are debating assuming canon or debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon.
If canon then DD had full protrusions before DOS. Thus he always had them.

If we are debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon then there is no mention that DD even got his powers from the sun or what he actually was. So the theory that sunlight caused him to grow protrusions is unfounded.

Writer's either didn't know what direction to go (his real appearance) at first or they simply wanted to keep it a secret.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No, later writers were simply addressing the "whys" of DD's adaption in the DOS arc. The bone evolution and increasing strength and such.

I don't understand.
Do you agree, going solely by canon, DD always had full protrusions during DOS?

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't understand.
Do you agree, going solely by canon, DD always had full protrusions during DOS?

Originally posted by darthgoober
No he obviously didn't. We saw the protrusions on his knuckles "bulge" before they ripped through his glove as he punched his way out of the box. The growing of the protrusions was actually shown, thus he didn't have them when he first woke up. There were no such indicative bulges in places such as his shoulders/knees while the areas were covered by the suit. That means that the bones grew in rapidly AFTER the areas were exposed.

We've also seen other examples that he can control them to a degree.
Here he shoots them out.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/43563/3041549-hp_evolve3.jpg

I mis-remembered the ear-canal, and I was at work posting from my phone so I couldn't look. I had remembered it as bones growing over it, but the canal actually just closed.

However, my memory probably just combined it with the following panel, where Superman notes that his broken bones just grow back.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1149976

Even the later version of Doomsday from after he was vaporised in OWAW that had intelligence was able to grow them at will.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307298-4.jpg

The original Doomsday was never shown as 'less', in fact, we've only seem him evolve stronger.

It was very purposeful that his historical showings involved
A)smashing the GLs and going at it with a Guardian,
B)Darkseid being scared of him and running from a confrontation[to which we saw results of later].
C)Battle with the energy being, The Radiant.

These were posed as very deliberate examples of what it had previously taken to put him down and the level he was on before his battle with Superman

We have also seen Doomsday put down, and see that he doesn't do any devolving or rid himself of his bones.
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/aSaWK2_p6quXhGeOrcuYlQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAwO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://40.media.tumblr.com/9487058096a2067bcda7b5c3ee04612c/tumblr_inline_o4ti9fSU3T1t0ijhl_1280.jpg

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4307163

There is no proof Doomsday was any weaker encountering Superman in metropolis. In fact, history has only shown us that he gets even more formidable in time.

The length of his bones are no marker towards any proof of this flat wrong idea.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No he obviously didn't. We saw the protrusions on his knuckles "bulge" before they ripped through his glove as he punched his way out of the box. The growing of the protrusions was actually shown, thus he didn't have them when he first woke up. There were no such indicative bulges in places such as his shoulders/knees while the areas were covered by the suit. That means that the bones grew in rapidly AFTER the areas were exposed.

Ok so you are dismissing the canon events that occurred before DOS where DD was shown with full protrusions right before his death? He was also shown dead with these protrusions. He was also clothed in his original DOS green suit with no visible protrusions. Meaning, they clothed him in such a way that his protrusions wasn't showing.

In other words, assuming the falsehood that he didn't initially have protrusions in DOS then the retcon showing that he always had them even before the events of DOS destroys the assumption.

In summary, before DOS, DD was shown both alive and dead with full protrusions. He was clothed immediately after his death, appearing the exact same way at the beginning of DOS. His protrusions were simply covered well.

Jun why are you addressing my response to h1 rather than my response to you lol

Originally posted by Juntai
They were, he just made them longer.
http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Doomsday-is-Coming-1.jpg

We've also seen other examples that he can control them to a degree.
Here he shoots them out.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/43563/3041549-hp_evolve3.jpg

I mis-remembered the ear-canal, and I was at work posting from my phone so I couldn't look. I had remembered it as bones growing over it, but the canal actually just closed.

However, my memory probably just combined it with the following panel, where Superman notes that his broken bones just grow back.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1149976

Even the later version of Doomsday from after he was vaporised in OWAW that had intelligence was able to grow them at will.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307298-4.jpg

The original Doomsday was never shown as 'less', in fact, we've only seem him evolve stronger.

It was very purposeful that his historical showings involved
A)smashing the GLs and going at it with a Guardian,
B)Darkseid being scared of him and running from a confrontation[to which we saw results of later].
C)Battle with the energy being, The Radiant.

These were posed as very deliberate examples of what it had previously taken to put him down and the level he was on before his battle with Superman

We have also seen Doomsday put down, and see that he doesn't do any devolving or rid himself of his bones.
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/aSaWK2_p6quXhGeOrcuYlQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAwO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://40.media.tumblr.com/9487058096a2067bcda7b5c3ee04612c/tumblr_inline_o4ti9fSU3T1t0ijhl_1280.jpg

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4307163

There is no proof Doomsday was any weaker encountering Superman in metropolis. In fact, history has only shown us that he gets even more formidable in time.

The length of his bones are no marker towards any proof of this flat wrong idea.

And I'm fully aware that his bones are part of his adaptive abilities, that's kinda my point. He emerged from the ground WITHOUT adaptions that he had before being boxed up so there's reason to doubt his being at that level since we know his powers are solar based like Supes and he didn't show the same level of power during the DOS arc that he demonstrated in flashback stories.

All that being said, you still haven't answered my question in regards to whether or not the scene from the novel ever actually appeared in a comic. I mean if you don't know just say so and I'll ask someone else or download the preceding comics myself. I just know that you're knowledgeable enough about Supes that you seemed like a good person to ask.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ok so you are dismissing the canon events that occurred before DOS where DD was shown with full protrusions right before his death? He was also shown dead with these protrusions. He was also clothed in his original DOS green suit with no visible protrusions. Meaning, they clothed him in such a way that his protrusions wasn't showing.

In other words, assuming the falsehood that he didn't initially have protrusions in DOS then the retcon showing that he always had them even before the events of DOS destroys the assumption.

In summary, before DOS, DD was shown both alive and dead with full protrusions. He was clothed immediately after his death, appearing the exact same way at the beginning of DOS. His protrusions were simply covered well.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No the protrusions weren't there. Given their length and the numerous stances we saw DD standing in after coming out of the box, there's no it was simply a matter of them being covered well. Especially since we can actually see the ones on his knuckles growing as he's punching the box.

The retcon says otherwise. It shows he always had protrusions before the events of DOS. He was even shown clothed immediately after his death resembling his original DOS self. How do you explain away him having them before his death and how do explain them putting clothes on him where he appears exactly as he did at the beginning of DOS? Remember he was shown to be clothed after death so that his soul wouldn't escape.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are trolling. You are not addressing each one of my points.

The retcon says otherwise. It shows he always had protrusions before the events of DOS. He was even shown clothed immediately after his death resembling his original DOS self. How do you explain away him having them before his death and how do explain them putting clothes on him where he appears exactly as he did at the beginning of DOS?

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not a recton, it's simply fleshing out a character who was introduced with no back story of any kind. Yes he had them before, then he died in a spectacular fasion that evidently caused him to assume something of an evolutionary "throw back" form. Then as things progressed his evolution kicked back in and became more and more like he was previously.

It's a retcon if you assume he didn't have protrusions at the beginning of DOS. He clearly had them right before his death. This is a canon fact. Now you can troll and ignore on panel evidence if you want. Basically you are saying that the comics explaining DD before the events of DOS isn't canon?

Originally posted by h1a8
It's a retcon if you assume he didn't have protrusions at the beginning of DOS. He clearly had them right before his death. This is a canon fact. Now you can troll and ignore on panel evidence if you want. Basically you are saying that the comics explaining DD before the events of DOS isn't canon?

Originally posted by darthgoober

I specifically said that we saw the bulges from the protrusions on his knuckles growing as he was punching away on that box, so I'm failing to see your point with that first scan. My point is that there was NO bulges shown on his shoulders, knees, and elbows. So no he didn't have them.

And I'm fully aware that his bones are part of his adaptive abilities, that's kinda my point. He emerged from the ground WITHOUT adaptions that he had before being boxed up so there's reason to doubt his being at that level since we know his powers are solar based like Supes and he didn't show the same level of power during the DOS arc that he demonstrated in flashback stories.

You are correct, he was not at the same level power, he was even more formidable by the time he got to Superman. This is the very nature of his character. His past showings were very deliberate in letting the reader know how powerful this character was before encountering Superman.

If you have any proof he was any weaker, please share it.

Because the comics completely substantiate what I'm saying and do nothing for yours.

All that being said, you still haven't answered my question in regards to whether or not the scene from the novel ever actually appeared in a comic. I mean if you don't know just say so and I'll ask someone else or download the preceding comics myself. I just know that you're knowledgeable enough about Supes that you seemed like a good person to ask.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not a recton if there's a perfectly logical reason he might not have them. There's no contradiction involved in what I'm saying.

But following the story, DD died with full protrusions and was shown dead with full protrusions. He was also shown clothed immediately resembling his original DOS self.
There is no mention anywhere explaining his protrusions somehow disappearing.
Logical explanations of things not shown are rooted in writer's intentions. Otherwise you are making stuff up ( which is a form of trolling).

Originally posted by Juntai
He can grow them. I have shown this. They are not shown as linked to any level of power. If you have any proof they are, please share.

You are correct, he was not at the same level power, he was even [b]more formidable by the time he got to Superman. This is the very nature of his character. His past showings were very deliberate in letting the reader know how powerful this character was before encountering Superman.

If you have any proof he was any weaker, please share it.

Because the comics completely substantiate what I'm saying and do nothing for yours. [/B]

I've never said that he was unable to grow them, I said he didn't have them when he emerged from the ground even though he had them in the flashback stories. That shows that he was lacking physical evolutions that he had before. I mean it's not like DD suddenly thought to himself "You know, these bone thingys are ugly, I think I'll retract them for a while".

And the comics DO offer substance to what I'm saying. We know he's a solar powered being from Krypton that evolves but came out of the ground without some of the adaptions he'd had previously. So it doesn't make sense to assume he was equal to his previous self when he came out of the ground since he was lacking his most prominent evolutions unless he actually somehow demonstrated the same level of power. And not only did he not demonstrate that level of power, he FAILED at killing Blue Beatle, Ice, and powerless Booster Gold even though the guy has no concept of "holding back". And as I pointed out to abhi, Supes himself specifically noted that the Warrior hit harder than DD. But I seriously doubt you'd credit the Warrior with being able to duplicate DD's striking feats from the flashback stories.

Originally posted by Juntai
I can't recall offhand, and while I could research it, I don't see a reason to as it's not necessary part of any debate I'm having.

Originally posted by h1a8
But following the story, DD died with full protrusions and was shown dead with full protrusions. He was also shown clothed immediately resembling his original DOS self.
There is no mention anywhere explaining his protrusions somehow disappearing.
Logical explanations of things not shown are rooted in writer's intentions. Otherwise you are making stuff up ( which is a form of trolling).