Originally posted by h1a8
Anything outside of writer's intentions simply doesn't exist. It's called making stuff up. There is no logical explanation hinted by the writer's to explain how DD protrusions suddenly disappeared after being clothed.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I've never said that he was unable to grow them, I said he didn't have them when he emerged from the ground even though he had them in the flashback stories. That shows that he was lacking physical evolutions that he had before. I mean it's not like DD suddenly thought to himself "You know, these bone thingys are ugly, I think I'll retract them for a while".And the comics DO offer substance to what I'm saying. We know he's a solar powered being from Krypton that evolves but came out of the ground without some of the adaptions he'd had previously. So it doesn't make sense to assume he was equal to his previous self when he came out of the ground since he was lacking his most prominent evolutions unless he actually somehow demonstrated the same level of power. And not only did he not demonstrate that level of power, he FAILED at killing Blue Beatle, Ice, and powerless Booster Gold even though the guy has no concept of "holding back". And as I pointed out to abhi, Supes himself specifically noted that the Warrior hit harder than DD. But I seriously doubt you'd credit the Warrior with being able to duplicate DD's striking feats from the flashback stories.
You're missing a lot though.
1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations.
Described here in his origin;
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/
Described here on panel:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg
2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. Though his bones seem to have little to do with that. He can just control them. We've seen it on panel. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight [Doomsday's rampage was over 3 hours iirc], is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger.
His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpg
ergo, the Doomsday that fought Superman was even stronger than the one than from the flashbacks of 250,000 years ago.
3) Not killing Booster and Guy and other named characters doesn't constitute him being less strong, only using less than maximum effort at that moment. He was strolling through because they were no threat to him. He stopped doing this as his battle with Superman raged on.
We saw this same effect in the GL storyline.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307125-1.jpg
The moment he ran into a challenge, he cranked it up.
Superman took him to his upper limit and pummeled him to the death in the street.
The effect of this made Doomsday essentially invincible afterwards. Only entropy was able to defeat him after Superman.
Originally posted by Juntai
You're missing a lot though.1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations.
Described here in his origin;
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/Described here on panel:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. Though his bones seem to have little to do with that. He can just control them. We've seen it on panel. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight [Doomsday's rampage was over 3 hours iirc], is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger.
His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpgergo, the Doomsday that fought Superman was even stronger than the one than from the flashbacks of 250,000 years ago.
3) Not killing Booster and Guy and other named characters doesn't constitute him being less strong, only using less than maximum effort at that moment. He was strolling through because they were no threat to him. He stopped doing this as his battle with Superman raged on.
We saw this same effect in the GL storyline.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307125-1.jpgThe moment he ran into a challenge, he cranked it up.
Superman took him to his upper limit and pummeled him to the death in the street.
The effect of this made Doomsday essentially invincible afterwards. Only entropy was able to defeat him after Superman.
👆
Going by his main stories, DOS, Hunter/Prey, Doomsday Wars, his origins, he's a beast. Even his low ends involve being manhandled by dozens of Kryptonians, or blasted by Imperiex (Something people often lowball on account of Superman himself surviving the same blast with tattered clothing..)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Another thing to note, though I may well be wrong.He was holding back (for want of a better term) against Booster et al...because he specifically hated Kryps, right? Had a hard on for Supes specifically.
We know from H/P that when DD sees Superman (and presumably all Kryptonians), he "sees" in his mind his creator Bertron. That paints a specific target on Supes' back, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it implies that he fights harder against him or that he holds back against others. I understand the argument for it completely, but I definitely think the evidence is too weak to consider it a fact.
Originally posted by cdtmThose people must be ignorant, then, because Superman DIDN'T survive Imperiex's attack. He was 'ported from the field by Darkseid BEFORE the full breadth of the blast struck him:
(Something people often lowball on account of Superman himself surviving the same blast with tattered clothing..)
http://i.imgur.com/rAeZgXI.jpg
👆
Originally posted by CogitoDD certainly doesn't hold back against non-Kryptonians.
We know from H/P that when DD sees Superman (and presumably all Kryptonians), he "sees" in his mind his creator Bertron. That paints a specific target on Supes' back, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it implies that he fights harder against him or that he holds back against others. I understand the argument for it completely, but I definitely think the evidence is too weak to consider it a fact.
*see Doomsday vs. GLs*
*see Doomsday vs. Mayhem*
*see Doomsday vs. Darkseid*
*see Doomsday vs. Apokolips*
*see Doomsday vs. Radiant*
*see Doomsday vs. JLA (both versions)*
etc. etc.
Originally posted by Galan007
DD certainly doesn't hold back against non-Kryptonians.*see Doomsday vs. GLs*
*see Doomsday vs. Mayhem*
*see Doomsday vs. Darkseid*
*see Doomsday vs. Apokolips*
*see Doomsday vs. Radiant*
*see Doomsday vs. JLA (both versions)*etc. etc.
I completely agree, but it could be argued that DD could (and did) stomp through these feebs while half-assing it. I think that's silly, but that was the point of my comment.
Originally posted by cdtm
👆Going by his main stories, DOS, Hunter/Prey, Doomsday Wars, his origins, he's a beast. Even his low ends involve being manhandled by dozens of Kryptonians, or blasted by Imperiex (Something people often lowball on account of Superman himself surviving the same blast with tattered clothing..)
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah the myth that dos doomsday was 'weak' are pretty ridiculous and just goes to show the ignorance of many posters in the forum.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm in no way suggesting that DOS DD was "weak", simply weakER. DC took everyone down a peg following COIE but then immediately began a constant power creep for all if it's characters. The further from COIE they got, the more powerful the characters became. Supes himself recieved significant upgrading SPECIFICALLY after the DOS saga. As I said in my initial post, if we scale the characters involved to the levels they were portrayed at in later days then DD would be considered an absolute beast, but if we're compartmentilizing him to the arc and era of the writing(like we do with WWH, Sentry, and orther arc specific characters), he's not nearly as formitable. Again, characters like Supes and Flash(I believe) weren't even able to go FTL back then... THAT'S how differently the characters were being portrayed back then.
Originally posted by darthgooberThe problem with this idea is Doomsday's history, The Guardian, the Radiant etc, who all had shown more power than Superman. And in those encounters, just the same as Superman's, Doomsday was taken to his limit and stopped. And from then on was even stronger.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm in no way suggesting that DOS DD was "weak", simply weakER. DC took everyone down a peg following COIE but then immediately began a constant power creep for all if it's characters. The further from COIE they got, the more powerful the characters became. Supes himself recieved significant upgrading SPECIFICALLY after the DOS saga. As I said in my initial post, if we scale the characters involved to the levels they were portrayed at in later days then DD would be considered an absolute beast, but if we're compartmentilizing him to the arc and era of the writing(like we do with WWH, Sentry, and orther arc specific characters), he's not nearly as formitable. Again, characters like Supes and Flash(I believe) weren't even able to go FTL back then... THAT'S how differently the characters were being portrayed back then.
Doomsday fought to his limit and died to Superman and we ended up with Hunter/Prey.
This means the version that Superman fought was even mightier than the version from 250k years ago. Superman took him to his even higher limit and punched him to death in the street.
Superman prior to Doomsday, yes, was weaker than he was post-Death because of his mental blocks, then he started doing consistently more amazing things as he learned to control the depths of his power. However, he belted out everything he had at Doomsday.
Just as the Radiant did.
Just as the Guardian did.
And each time Doomsday is increased.
The application of Doomsday into Superman's story is what changed post-Crisis comics forever in many ways.
Originally posted by Juntai
You're missing a lot though.1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations.
Described here in his origin;
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/Described here on panel:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg
While not born on Krypton, if the baby was taken/created from the stock of the people who'd eventually settle on Krypton and become Kryptonians, he's still basically Kryptonian though.
Originally posted by Juntai
2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. Though his bones seem to have little to do with that. He can just control them. We've seen it on panel. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight [Doomsday's rampage was over 3 hours iirc], is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger.His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpgergo, the Doomsday that fought Superman was even stronger than the one than from the flashbacks of 250,000 years ago.
I'm in no way suggesting that DD has ever been "weak". Hell even the Thing's not actually weak. But we base a lot of how we view characters on what they actually SHOW in any given story. By the same token, most people assume that the Molecule Man that Sentry defeated was weaker than normal even though there was no specific mention that he was weakened in that story. DD's lack of bone protrusions is simply an indication that he was DIFFERENT than he was in the flashback stories. If we know he's different via lacking some of what he had before, it makes not sense to assume that he came out of the ground better(or even equal) to what he showed in the flashbacks.
Originally posted by Juntai
3) Not killing Booster and Guy and other named characters doesn't constitute him being less strong, only using less than maximum effort at that moment. He was strolling through because they were no threat to him. He stopped doing this as his battle with Superman raged on.We saw this same effect in the GL storyline.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307125-1.jpgThe moment he ran into a challenge, he cranked it up.
Superman took him to his upper limit and pummeled him to the death in the street.
The effect of this made Doomsday essentially invincible afterwards. Only entropy was able to defeat him after Superman.
One of the most basic things about DD is that he NEVER holds back though. He's never really using less than maximum effort. It can be said that he doesn't FOCUS on absolute destruction, but particularly against Booster Gold he WAS focused on taking the guy out. He didn't casually backhand or anything like that, he subjected Booster to multiple strikes and even slammed a car door on his head/neck. Now I have no problem viewing his failure to kill named heroes with the standard suspension of disbelief required to follow comics, but that kind of focused offense from a being who was tearing through GLs and New Gods with casual ease DOES at the very least throw some skepticism on his level of power. Especially when Supes himself specifically noted that the Warrior hit harder than DD.
Originally posted by Juntai
The problem with this idea is Doomsday's history, The Guardian, the Radiant etc, who all had shown more power than Superman. And in those encounters, just the same as Superman's, Doomsday was taken to his limit and stopped. And from then on was even stronger.Doomsday fought to his limit and died to Superman and we ended up with Hunter/Prey.
This means the version that Superman fought was even mightier than the version from 250k years ago. Superman took him to his even higher limit and punched him to death in the street.
Superman prior to Doomsday, yes, was weaker than he was post-Death because of his mental blocks, then he started doing consistently more amazing things as he learned to control the depths of his power. However, he belted out everything he had at Doomsday.
Just as the Radiant did.
Just as the Guardian did.
And each time Doomsday is increased.
The application of Doomsday into Superman's story is what changed post-Crisis comics forever in many ways.
Originally posted by darthgoober
While not born on Krypton, if the baby was taken/created from the stock of the people who'd eventually settle on Krypton and become Kryptonians, he's still basically Kryptonian though.
This infant, not native to this world of yours....
DD was taken from somewhere else. And by referring to Krypton as 'yours' (when speaking to the Kryp scientists), it is explicitly NOT of the same stock as the Kryp settlers.
