Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't recall him saying that.Quote and link please.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'll try to find it
However here's canonical confirmation that rebels maul progressed as a duelist:
Kenobi and Maul canonically have improved as duelists from when they've last fought:
"The actual duel is very short, how did you come to the conclusion it had to come this way?...(feloni) If you talk to a lot of people who sword fight, they'll tell you people who are very good don't have long fights. So that scene, its a homage to the 7th samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see a prolonged lightsaber fight. But I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters don't have growth "
To be fair, growth is vague and can mean anything. But I do believe Feloni meant dueling ability, since that's exactly what he was talking about before he made that comment.
That is true. Just because Maul didn't practice doesn't mean anything. Sidious didn't practice and he remained the greatest duelist in the movies. Just like Kenobi didn't practice during his exile and he still contended with Vader, albeit he wouldn't be able to actually beat Vader, but contend for a while? Sure.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'll try to find it
However here's canonical confirmation that rebels maul progressed as a duelist:
Kenobi and Maul canonically have improved as duelists from when they've last fought:
"The actual duel is very short, how did you come to the conclusion it had to come this way?...(feloni) If you talk to a lot of people who sword fight, they'll tell you people who are very good don't have long fights. So that scene, its a homage to the 7th samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see a prolonged lightsaber fight. But I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters don't have growth "
I know that quote, but point is Witwer never said that as you claimed.
As for this quote, the "growth" is just referring to the way they approach duels now. Both of them going for the killing move right away. But they were both using moves they've used in the past, so it's not like they've grown in that regard.
Maul's growth especially has to be questioned given he used the exact same killing blow he used against Qui-Gon 30 years earlier. He's clearly just stuck in that moment, which won't allow for any real growth.
Quanchi is simply making up excuse after excuse.
Funny how he claimed Maul was still powerful and extremely skilled, competing with Ahsoka and being > Kanan, Ezra and the Inqs before all this, but now that he was owned by Kenobi in 3 moves, he starts saying he wasn't in his prime, he was mentally unstable, he was 'lost'.
The fact that Maul wasn't in his prime or that he wasn't mentally stable or whatever doesn't even begin to excuse getting destroyed in three moves. Just accept it and move on, Quan. You're only making a fool out of yourself.
Originally posted by Petrus
Quanchi is simply making up excuse after excuse.Funny how he claimed Maul was still powerful and extremely skilled, competing with Ahsoka and being > Kanan, Ezra and the Inqs before all this, but now that he was owned by Kenobi in 3 moves, he starts saying he wasn't in his prime, he was mentally unstable, he was 'lost'.
The fact that Maul wasn't in his prime or that he wasn't mentally stable or whatever doesn't even begin to excuse getting destroyed in three moves. Just accept it and move on, Quan. You're only making a fool out of yourself.
^ Thanks for finishing this.
Originally posted by samappoEither version would have bested Kenobi. And we already know Maul wasn't going to kill Kenobi since we've known since ANH how Kenobi dies. Maul was on borrowed time and had a fitting end. I do still hope they cover some part of the Maul's life in an anthology film down the road.
And his TPM or TCW iteration would fare better in that fight necessarily ?
The same logic applies to Maul, Kenobi, Vader, etc. This has been my point and I'm glad you've come around. My point is though this is the only version of what we see so this is his prime as the other younger version has not been explored in canon so we cannot judge with our own eyes.
We do know? It's mentioned many times in TPM that Jinn was not as strong and fit as he used to be. It specifically states that he compensated for his old age with more experience. This is in the novel.[/B]
He was broken on his own. He unbalanced Kenobi twice in the past mentally. He was unbalanced prior to even meeting up with Kenobi. Maul has always been arrogant and seeing Kenobi in the desert as a hermit and upon hearing his values once again underestimated him while being broken himself. Being broken, lost, older, frailer, and underestimating your opponent means he was at his best ?? Just stop. This is pitiful.
Because he was going up against the person he was looking for for so long to exact revenge upon. He obviously wasn't going to be mentally at his best fighting Kenobi. Kenobi lulled him in with the Ataru stance, and Maul took that as a weakness. He didn't think it through because he mentally was just hellbent on revenge. This doesn't make him worse as a duelist, it's just him yet again underestimating what his opponent is thinking/planning/can do.[/B]
The novel is silly to bring up. Yes, two Jedi at times penetrated his defenses. Maul held his own and divided his foes to later conquer them. He killed Kenobi's master and after disarming Obi taunted him instead of finishing him. Qui was still formidable and wiser but less than Maul when push came to shove.
"Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing. He was backed to the edge of the chamber beyond, keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon..."Maul got injured during the fight, multiple times. Which means that Jinn and or Jinn + Kenobi penetrated his defenses on multiple occasions. Not exactly a clear sign of an easy fight, especially if the majority of these wounds happened when Jinn and Maul were fighting alone.
Also note that Maul was "keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon...".
"Qui-Gon was on his feet as well, his own weapon flashing. He catapulted through the opening that led into the melting pit and closed with the Sith Lord, forcing him back, out of the passageway completely."
Note the use of the word force. Maul before this was definitely leading Jinn on towards the melting pit, but this passage indicates that Maul was getting beaten back forcefully as well, at least in this point in time.
"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.[/B]
Maul defeated him. He also fought a two on one advantage. Maul expended twice the energy and had a clear kill shit on Qui when he was alone vs. Maul.
Then Darth Maul back-flipped across the melting pit, giving himself some space in which to recover, gaining just enough time to assume a new battle stance. Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew.These passages show that Jinn matched Maul. Sure Maul won, Jinn as old and tired quickly. But to make Maul 'stymied' (to prevent or hinder the progress of) and 'uncertain' about how the fight was going to play out is quite impressive. Even when Maul back-flipped across the pit, he could barely assume a battle stance before Jinn was already engaging him again.[/B]
Nah, that's silly. Maul beat him. He didn't barely beat him. First time they met Qui fled. Second time they met Maul killed him.So if Maul is superior to Jinn, it's quite barely.
I know it's speculation. But again you're not really specifying the exact version of Maul where he's at his best. [/B]
All are better than the rebels version. That's specific enough since the rebels version was an older, frailer, broken, lost, more isolated and less practiced Maul. Common sense.
I honestly feel like the theory surrounding that last fight between Maul and Kenobi is so ambiguous and open to debate that going back and forth is going to get us nowhere. All I know this that Feloni talks about growth for both characters.
As for Jinn, he's at best slightly below Maul. They are clearly equals until Jinn tires out due to his age. Qui-Gon is listed as a superior swordsman to Anoon Bondara who was the Form VII specialist battlemaster and instructor on the same level as Cin Drallig. If he's not Maul's level (he clearly isn't) then he's very close.
Also
Originally posted by Petrus
Quanchi is simply making up excuse after excuse.Funny how he claimed Maul was still powerful and extremely skilled, competing with Ahsoka and being > Kanan, Ezra and the Inqs before all this, but now that he was owned by Kenobi in 3 moves, he starts saying he wasn't in his prime, he was mentally unstable, he was 'lost'.
The fact that Maul wasn't in his prime or that he wasn't mentally stable or whatever doesn't even begin to excuse getting destroyed in three moves. Just accept it and move on, Quan. You're only making a fool out of yourself.
^
Originally posted by Petrus
Quanchi is simply making up excuse after excuse.Funny how he claimed Maul was still powerful and extremely skilled, competing with Ahsoka and being > Kanan, Ezra and the Inqs before all this, but now that he was owned by Kenobi in 3 moves, he starts saying he wasn't in his prime, he was mentally unstable, he was 'lost'.
The fact that Maul wasn't in his prime or that he wasn't mentally stable or whatever doesn't even begin to excuse getting destroyed in three moves. Just accept it and move on, Quan. You're only making a fool out of yourself.
Maul is still powerful and extremely skilled. He just isn't AT HIS BEST. I have always said he wasn't in his prime in rebels. Go find the quotes you liar. Nothing I have said has changed you just are misrepresenting what I have said.
Maul has been more mentally unstable since we saw him in rebels from the start.
The creator disagrees but your idiocy doesn't grasp the scene because it was in three moves. It was an ode to a samurai film in which master swordsman duels don't last long and and played out mentally before the actual slashing began.
When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that.So Obi-Wan is going to strike down Maul because Maul is such a broken and lost person
^^From the creators mouth on why he lost. You're a damn fool. An utter willful ignoramus who is denying a fact because you're an immature dolt trying to elevate Kenobi's status.
Originally posted by samappoHis whole point was how Kenobi had grown and was ready for the same tactic Maul tried years ago. He also said Maul was stuck in the past implying no growth. Kenobi had grown, knew who he was, was ready for Maul while Maul was lost and broken hence why he lost. Per the creators mouth.
I honestly feel like the theory surrounding that last fight between Maul and Kenobi is so ambiguous and open to debate that going back and forth is going to get us nowhere. All I know this that Feloni talks about growth for both characters.As for Jinn, he's at best slightly below Maul. They are clearly equals until Jinn tires out due to his age. Qui-Gon is listed as a superior swordsman to Anoon Bondara who was the Form VII specialist battlemaster and instructor on the same level as Cin Drallig. If he's not Maul's level (he clearly isn't) then he's very close.
Also
^
No,they aren't since he took Maul on with a younger Jedi than he was. Maul makes him flee and kills him. Maul is better than Qui. It isn't up for debate and we have no other evidence of any duels between the two to draw this conclusion from.
Originally posted by samappoOr they are denying facts and need to be insulted. If he doesn't want to act like a child denying Filoni's specific reasoning for the outcome of the duel I'll quit insulting him.
You know, they say when you start insulting your opponent in the debate, it means you've lost.
You know, they say when you start insulting your opponent in the debate, it means you've lost.
Still pretty low mate.
His whole point was how Kenobi had grown and was ready for the same tactic Maul tried years ago. He also said Maul was stuck in the past implying no growth. Kenobi had grown, knew who he was, was ready for Maul while Maul was lost and broken hence why he lost. Per the creators mouth.
Neither of them practiced as far as we know. Growth as duelists would therefore mean mentality. As an ode to The 7th Samurai, they plan out what's going to happen, and Kenobi happens to take the cake. The fact that Feloni infers that master swordsmen don't have long fights implies both are master swordsmen. If Maul wasn't on Kenobi's level then he wouldn't have mentioned it, nor would he have implied that the fight is an ode to the Samurai movie.
No,they aren't since he took Maul on with a younger Jedi than he was. Maul makes him flee and kills him. Maul is better than Qui. It isn't up for debate and we have no other evidence of any duels between the two to draw this conclusion from.
Okay well Anoon Bondara knew he couldn't beat Darth Maul, and he was a battlemaster Form VII specialist. Jinn was a superior swordsman to him. That puts Jinn in between the two. In the duel of fates Jinn almost kills Maul. Read this
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641053.html
Again, not saying they are equal, but Jinn is easily a match.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I know that quote, but point is Witwer never said that as you claimed.As for this quote, the "growth" is just referring to the way they approach duels now. Both of them going for the killing move right away. But they were both using moves they've used in the past, so it's not like they've grown in that regard.
Maul's growth especially has to be questioned given he used the exact same killing blow he used against Qui-Gon 30 years earlier. He's clearly just stuck in that moment, which won't allow for any real growth.
2. The context of the quote makes it very clear its referring to skill as a blade. And regaardless, its not needed. Maul and Kenobi being "very good" as a reason for the short fight compared to their tcw counterparts who had "prolonged fights" indicates they grew. The "growtw" part just reinforces that.
3. Thats symbolism for character growth, which maul as a sith, never underwent. Furthermore that would apply to tcw/sod maul as well. Combatively feloni has made clear that due to kenobi's progression as a jedi, he gone to the point maul can't beat him:
''When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that''. Maul using the same move was symbolism for him not progressing, as a character imo
Originally posted by samappoI have little patience for ignorance.
Still pretty low mate.
So Kenobi just jerked off in the desert ? He was protecting someone but didn't meditate, none the force, or work on his skills despite the most important task in the galaxy according to him ?? They are master swordsmen. Maul is on his level but showed no growth in that duel and used the same tactic from decades ago. That's why he lost. He was broken and lost. Mentality, physical degradation, less practice, same tactic from decades ago, and broken and lost. You claim this is his best. Bullshit. Nonsensical.
Neither of them practiced as far as we know. Growth as duelists would therefore mean mentality. As an ode to The 7th Samurai, they plan out what's going to happen, and Kenobi happens to take the cake. The fact that Feloni infers that master swordsmen don't have long fights implies both are master swordsmen. If Maul wasn't on Kenobi's level then he wouldn't have mentioned it, nor would he have implied that the fight is an ode to the Samurai movie.
[/B]
Maul is better you yourself agree. I don't care to debate how much better. He is and you agree. I never said Qui was some scrub I just said Maul was better. He is.
Okay well Anoon Bondara knew he couldn't beat Darth Maul, and he was a battlemaster Form VII specialist. Jinn was a superior swordsman to him. That puts Jinn in between the two. In the duel of fates Jinn almost kills Maul. Read thishttp://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641053.html
Again, not saying they are equal, but Jinn is easily a match. [/B]
So Kenobi just jerked off in the desert ? He was protecting someone but didn't meditate, none the force, or work on his skills despite the most important task in the galaxy according to him ?? They are master swordsmen. Maul is on his level but showed no growth in that duel and used the same tactic from decades ago. That's why he lost. He was broken and lost. Mentality, physical degradation, less practice, same tactic from decades ago, and broken and lost. You claim this is his best. Bullshit. Nonsensical.
I'd like to simply respond with this quote from another thread. Written by |King Joker|
Regardless, the whole reason Ben beat Maul so easily is because Maul used a move Ben was anticipating and had already seen before. It isn't hard. Ben isn't leaps and bounds above Maul in terms of skill like everyone is naively believing now -- the fight was mostly a result of Maul's predictability and impulsiveness.