Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I might be misunderstanding here, so correct me if I'm wrong but, you seem to be suggesting that Kento Marek's warning is one of the reasons for your low placement of Galen's skill level which implies you believe he's at the level of an initiate taking their trials for knighthood. Did I hit the mark?If that's the case, you understand why I'm having trouble grasping such a stance. Mostly for the reason that Galen already stalemated a Jedi master ( and a rather powerful one at that ) who had mastered multiple forms of lightsaber combat. A combatant who's skill are going to be far above that of an initiate taking their trials to become a Jedi Knight.
Well, I'd imagine that somebody who is literally one with the Force can ascertain the truth of any event, and he has no reason to lie.
I don't mean to say that Galen is padawan-tier, because obviously any figure of prodigious Force abilities, and especially one subjected to the rigour of training under Darth Vader (held back or otherwise) should be a remarkable fighter, but I'm finding the positive evidence on Galen's end rather thin.
Again, take the quote as you will, but Galen's track record in lightsaber fights is absolutely appalling. I'm simply cataloguing his performances in fights which simply aren't up to the standard that you'd expect, nor the standard that his accolades depict him at.
Kota himself was Galen's equal and he isn't exactly so hot either, with killing some beasts and being one-shotted by Boba his only feats. Where's the quote that he mastered Juyo? On his RT, the only evidence I found for him even knowing Juyo was a game mechanic. It would help if he at least had Juyo mastery under his belt.
I agree but if his statement doesn't match reality then it cannot be true.
But that IS what you're saying. And honestly Nova, that makes no sense. We KNOW he's mastered multiple forms and we KNOW he's stated to have great skill in lightsaber combat as a whole. You know his duel against Shaak Ti isn't as one sided as many would like to pretend. She pushed him at the beginning sure, but if you read the fight you can clearly see that Galen performed much better when he was given time to adjust to Shaak's use of the environment against him. Your other example was Maris, right? Galen muses how he should defeat her in front of Bail to keep up the facade of a Jedi Knight whilst having a philosophical debate with himself about the merits of the Dark and Lightside. She never stood a chance.
Can you give me some more examples because I think you might be allowing hearsay to taint your view tbh. And that's through no fault of your own. If you hear something repeated enough it tends to stick regardless of its merit.
It's from the campaign guide that lists his attributes. Are you dismissing that? Aside from that, are you suggesting that a Jedi Master who passed his trials decades prior is going to be inferior to an initiate taking these test in regards to technical skill?
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I agree but if his statement doesn't match reality then it cannot be true.
We don't have any other indication of reality. I'm all for reasons to ignore Marek's claim, but as of yet, I haven't been presented with any. Is there a quote suggesting that he beat Desolous easily?
But that IS what you're saying. And honestly Nova, that makes no sense. We KNOW he's mastered multiple forms and we KNOW he's stated to have great skill in lightsaber combat as a whole. You know his duel against Shaak Ti isn't as one sided as many would like to pretend. She pushed him at the beginning sure, but if you read the fight you can clearly see that Galen performed much better when he was given time to adjust to Shaak's use of the environment against him. Your other example was Maris, right? Galen muses how he should defeat her in front of Bail to keep up the facade of a Jedi Knight whilst having a philosophical debate with himself about the merits of the Dark and Lightside. She never stood a chance.Can you give me some more examples because I think you might be allowing hearsay to taint your view tbh. And that's through no fault of your own. If you hear something repeated enough it tends to stick regardless of its merit.
Hearsay from myself, it must be, because I'm the only one who's been arguing this.
You're misinterpreting me. I'm not using any one example to drop Galen to any specific level. My point is that he's sorely lacking evidence for being a fighter of the calibre that we like to think he is, or that his accolades suggest. I'm going through his fights and just not finding evidence putting him there.
In the context of this thread, I'm looking for reasons that Felucia Galen can beat Savage or Ventress. He can win through the Force, but I imagine he would fall to their blades beforehand.
My other example was the Shadow Guard that went back-and-forth with him.
It's from the campaign guide that lists his attributes. Are you dismissing that? Aside from that, are you suggesting that a Jedi Master who passed his trials decades prior is going to be inferior to an initiate taking these test in regards to technical skill?
Do you have a quote for his mastery of it? As I said, it's nice to have Juyo proficiency under your belt, since it automatically makes you one of the most skilled Force wielders and a high-level master of at least two other forms.
Again, no. Starkiller stalemated Kota and beat Desolous; we can assume that Kota's better than Desolous also.
Except quotes and Galen's actual performances... Even if he hadn't beat the program easily then that would be representative of the programs difficulty being above that of an initiate's capabilities to defeat for unknown reasons. The most likely reason for the statement however without outright dismissing it is that Kento's spirit was indicating it would not only be a test of Marek's skill but also his mental fortitude as these tests were supposed to not only ensure a Jedi's capabilities as a combatant but their willpower and spirit.
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Well, then yes. Unfortunately that's what it is. I imagine that such a position is born from ignorance rather then malicious intent though. I'd like to think that anyways.
Can you give me a specific example because I think you may be lacking context for some of them.
And I'm curious as to why you believe that.
Which source are you referring to with the Shadow Guards? The comic or the novel?
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To my knowledge, one doesn't need to master Juyo to have fulfilled the prerequisites for mastery of multiple forms. Only being able to control the form is necessary. Since Juyo is listed as a form both Rahm and Galen possess in their arsenal, I imagine they have a pretty solid control over the form, especially given Galen's other quotes regarding his skill by the beginning of TFU and Rahm's ability to match him.
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"Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII." - Insider #62: Fightsaber.
"Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill." - Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.
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You're forgetting that Galen is growing in both power and skill throughout the game.
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"The dark side rushed through him, made him strong and resilient. He felt more powerful than he ever had before." - The Force Unleashed.
"All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before." - The Force Unleashed
“I’m not wearing out,†he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.†- The Force Unleashed.
"The apprentice nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa." - The Force Unleashed
I thought Galen's improvement would be quite clear given he was only able to stalemate Rahm at the beginning of the game, someone who Vader later ragdolled even though Galen was capable of defeating Vader by the end of game. But I imagine you have some sort of justification for Galen not having grown that much throughout the game.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I thought Galen's improvement would be quite clear given he was only able to stalemate Rahm at the beginning of the game, someone who Vader later ragdolled even though Galen was capable of beating Vader.
Well, obviously Galen improves. That's outright stated too. What did I say that made you think otherwise? Because I acknowledged it in this thread several times. However, this is just Felucia Galen.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Except quotes and Galen's actual performances... Even if he hadn't beat the program easily then that would be representative of the programs difficulty being above that of an initiate's capabilities to defeat for unknown reasons. The most likely reason for the statement however without outright dismissing it is that Kento's spirit was indicating it would not only be a test of Marek's skill but also his mental fortitude as these tests were supposed to not only ensure a Jedi's capabilities as a combatant but their willpower and spirit.
Possibly, though this was Galen's Trial of Skill as opposed to his Trial of Insight/Spirit (where he did have to use those things).
Well, then yes. Unfortunately that's what it is. I imagine that such a position is born from ignorance rather then malicious intent though. I'd like to think that anyways.
lol Ok then.
Can you give me a specific example because I think you may be lacking context for some of them.
Specific example of what?
And I'm curious as to why you believe that.
Better feats. They're about even with Plo (although given their rates of growth you could easily put their prime versions above him), who in turn is above CW era Shaak. TFU Shaak may have improved, but that'd require a separate case to be made since I don't believe it's stated outright and arguments for that tend to revolve around her beating Galen, which would be circular in this context. And Galen was noticeably inferior to her.
Although on reconsideration, I admit he's probably closer than I originally believed and that team 1 has a decent chance at a win.
Which source are you referring to with the Shadow Guards? The comic or the novel?
The novel - the Raxus Prime fight.
To my knowledge, one doesn't need to master Juyo to have fulfilled the prerequisites for mastery of multiple forms. Only being able to control the form is necessary. Since Juyo is listed as a form both Rahm and Galen possess in their arsenal, I imagine they have a pretty solid control over the form, especially given Galen's other quotes regarding his skill by the beginning of TFU and Rahm's ability to match him.___________________________________
"Only high-level masters of multiple forms can [b]achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.
" - Insider #62: Fightsaber."Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill." - Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.[/b]
I know that. That's what I said, though I can see why it may not have been clear. I was just curious if he did have a mastery over the form. Just being able to wield it is indicative of technical mastery on your part, but I was still curious as to whether he did master it.
[[Well, obviously Galen improves. That's outright stated too. What did I say that made you think otherwise? Because I acknowledged it in this thread several times. However, this is just Felucia Galen.]]
You said "Again, no. Starkiller stalemated Kota and beat Desolous; we can assume that Kota's better than Desolous also."
That seems like you're indicating the only reason Rahm is above the program is because of this initial performance which is simply not the case. I'm aware that this is just Felucia Galen but he's still above where he was in both skill and power by that point then where he was at the start of the game.
[[Possibly, though this was Galen's Trial of Skill as opposed to his Trial of Insight/Spirit (where he did have to use those things).]]
Then as I said it's either referencing something else or possesses a difficulty level above what an initiate is capable of handling for unknown reasons. This is evident based on Galen's demonstrated capabilities by this point in the story.
One explanation is that it's difficulty was set to a maximum level by Sidious or one of his lackeys to catch unwary Jedi off guard. IIRC Jedi who's combat abilities were in question after a particularly traumatic or trying mission would be retested to make sure they still possessed an acceptable degree of combative effectiveness. Perhaps they were tested by a simulacrum placed on a higher difficulty level.
Of course, the above is just speculation, but I'm trying to give you a plausible reason if we're going off the basis that Kento's spirit was referring to the degree the simulacrum would test Galen's capabilities.
Another explanation is simply that it would test Galen to that degree after having fought through the Imperial garrison based in the temple on Coruscant.
[[Specific example of what?]]
Of the instances you think demonstrate Galen's lack of skill.
[[Better feats. Although on reconsideration, I admit he's probably closer than I originally believed and that team 1 has a decent chance at a win.]]
Can I get the quote for Ventress driving back Dooku? I would personally consider that a better skill feat as well though I don't agree that Savage's performance against Plo is better then Galen's against Shaak.
[[The novel - the Raxus Prime fight.]]
I'll look into it.
[[I know that. That's what I said, though I can see why it may not have been clear. I was just curious if he did have a mastery over the form. Just being able to wield it is indicative of technical mastery on your part, but I was still curious as to whether he did master it.]]
Nothing confirming it that I know of.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure. I imagine Vader seeing Obi-Wan all of a sudden like that would be somewhat jarring, although as far as I know most sources depict him beating PROXY rather comfortably (as he should).
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure. I imagine Vader seeing Obi-Wan all of a sudden like that would be somewhat jarring, although as far as I know most sources depict him beating PROXY rather comfortably (as he should).
He manages to trade a few blows but like you said that's likely mostly due to his surprise at seeing his old master.
1. No, I meant that just proves that Kota's obviously above Desolous also. Nothing I said precludes Galen's improvements.
2. The idea of it being a higher level than normal is possible but I'm not sure if such higher levels would be implemented in a simulacrum designed to test padawans. In any case, this is all speculation and we don't need to go through this.
3. His entire catalogue of showings. He hasn't beaten anybody of note by virtue of skill. I suppose something can be made of his performance against Shaak, but even that fails to convince me that he could do anything other than stall Ventress or Savage.
4. Here:
Snarling, Ventress charged at Dooku, reveling in the strength of her muscles as she dealt strike after strike. Her old Master parried expertly, but she forced him back. He dodged to one side. Just as Ventress realized she had overextended, Dooku's left hand clamped down on her right wrist and he brought up his own lightsaber. It was Ventress's turn to seize his arm and hold the scarlet blade at bay.-- Dark Disciple
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No, I meant that just proves that Kota's obviously above Desolous also. Nothing I said precludes Galen's improvements.2. The idea of it being a higher level than normal is possible but I'm not sure if such higher levels would be implemented in a simulacrum designed to test padawans. In any case, this is all speculation and we don't need to go through this.
3. His entire catalogue of showings. He hasn't beaten anybody of note by virtue of skill. I suppose something can be made of his performance against Shaak, but even that fails to convince me that he could do anything other than stall Ventress or Savage.
4. Here:
1. Fair enough.
2. Well, we can't assume canonical quotes are contradicted by performances we don't know the full context of. In general, a program designed to test initiates would not take all of Galen's skills to defeat given his past performances. At leas, if we're assessing him at his peak capabilities. It's why the second explanation I provided is the most likely.
3. He stalemated and even gained advantages over Vader and Shaak in lightsaber combat during certain portions of his duels with both opponents despite being at a distinct disadvantage in both encounters.
4. Thanks. It seems like Dooku purposely gave ground in an effort to get her to overextend, does it not?