Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, your misunderstanding. They do make up the top three, just as the top whatever have a knack for Sith SorceryThe quote doesn't say "some" or "among" the most powerful. It specifically states "the" most powerful.
The only difference between the quotes is that a specific number isn't listed for the Sorcery, whereas for the WotC it limits it to three.
The X number of Sith in the first and the three in the second are the 1, 2, 3, etc. in the list anyway.
My point is basically that "the most powerful Sith Lords" in both contexts is synonymous with "one of the most powerful Sith Lords". I'm saying that WotC isn't limiting that accolade to those three, but simply choosing three representatives of that group (the group being anyone who can claim to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords).
Originally posted by SunRazer
He is. He's more powerful than Mace as of TPM per Yoda, and by TPM Mace is above KotOR Revan, never mind Darth Revan.
1.) Character quotes can't dictate character hierarchicies, especially in contradiction to official sources.
2.) Fact Files has came out and specified that the Windu quote isn't applying to Revan, so wrong there.
3.) The WotC quote takes priority over the Fact Files quote regardles. It's written in 2008.
There's nothing vague at all. The Exile, Kreia and the Jedi Masters in KotOR II make it abundantly clear that Nihilus > Revan.
The Revan novel, on the other hand, rewrites Nihilus completely, so there's no reason to believe that it refers to Nihilus as in KotOR II. Certainly there's no reason to consider it binding when Nihilus is represented in the novel with completely inaccurate information. Whereas the quote in KotOR II obviously encompasses Revan also.
Originally posted by SunRazer
My point is basically that "the most powerful Sith Lords" in both contexts is synonymous with "one of the most powerful Sith Lords". I'm saying that WotC isn't limiting that accolade to those three, but simply choosing three representatives of that group (the group being anyone who can claim to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords).
The WotC quote is referring to the foremost three, not representatives. That's what "the" means.
Just so you don't waste my time:
- Yoda, Kreia, or Meetra Surik saying anything doesn't overrule the quote. So arguing that way is irrelevant.
- Fact Files saying anything doesn't overrule the quote. It would thus be retconned and doesn't refer to Revan anyway.
- "The" means "the," not "some" or "among" or whatever word you want to change the meaning of.
Moving forward, if anything you say falls under these three points, I'm just quoting this.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I supposed when we have next to nothing to support its validity, the best we can do keep saying it is and hope everyone follows along. Good work Anthony. 👆
Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians._It’s an innate gift,_the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.
Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.
But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvenating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.
Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.
It was more important that Sidious remain as focused on manipulating events in the profane world as Plagueis was intent on dominating the realm of the Force, of which the mundane was only a gross and distorted reflection.
—Darth Plagueis
Originally posted by BeniboyblingRight? Haha-WRONG.
Traditional Sith alchemy is achieved through sorcery, you dolt. 🙂
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Wrong on so many different fronts.1.) Character quotes can't dictate character hierarchicies, especially in contradiction to official sources.
2.) Fact Files has came out and specified that the Windu quote isn't applying to Revan, so wrong there.
3.) The WotC quote takes priority over the Fact Files quote regardles. It's written in 2008.
Fair on the third point. Fact Files never said Mace's quote doesn't apply. Regarding character statements, they absolutely can dictate hierarchies unless a quote outright says something incompatible with the character statement. It helps that the entire Council was unanimously agreeing with Yoda. As for KotOR II, it's confirmed by the objective game script, so it's definitely not just character opinions.
But as you said, both quotes are earlier than WotC.
This argument is outright ignoring canon and thus irrelevant.
Just like Drew's writings about KotOR II in the book. 😂
Your point remains unproven and desperate.The WotC quote is referring to the foremost three, not representatives. That's what "the" means.
Completely up to interpretation, as I said. "The most powerful Sith Lords" is a synonym for the massive group of Sith Lords who can all claim to be "one of the most powerful"; WotC simply chose three representatives of that group since they were being published in this line of products. That in no way means it's the absolute three best, which we know isn't the case since it's retconned anyway.
Think of it this way. Change it to "Have you ever wondered what would happen if some of the most powerful Sith Lords duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy? We'll try to answer that question in "Sith Showdown"!"
Even if you replace "the most powerful" with "some of the most powerful", everything still holds together. "The most powerful" can absolutely be interpreted as a synonym for "some of the most powerful". Therefore, my interpretation is entirely valid. It's not definitively correct, but it's an entirely possible, legitimate interpretation.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I thought you were quitting debating, BTW? You seem quite engaged in getting this quote debunked, although you can't.Your doing better than Beni though, but the quote still remains 100% intact, whereas with Beni it was raising to like 120%, lmfao.
Nah, I said my time here will expire soon. But not yet. 🙂
Good to see you still hate Beni.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Just so you don't waste my time:- Yoda, Kreia, or Meetra Surik saying anything doesn't overrule the quote. So arguing that way is irrelevant.
- Fact Files saying anything doesn't overrule the quote. It would thus be retconned and doesn't refer to Revan anyway.
- "The" means "the," not "some" or "among" or whatever word you want to change the meaning of.
Moving forward, if anything you say falls under these three points, I'm just quoting this.
They are the three best. That's what that means. I don't really have much else to say besides repeating such, just as you don't but repeating your argument.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Requoting. ^They are the three best. That's what that means. I don't really have much else to say besides repeating such, just as you don't but repeating your argument.
Yeah, we're both just repeating ourselves at this point. My point is that alternate interpretations are available; there's no point in trying to force us into believing one thing like a totalitarian dictator.
Anyway, you know I don't agree with Azronger on this.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Aside from common sense, reasoning skills and that critical ability to read. 🙁
Reality is quite the reverse. We have quotes confirming it's canoncity, and nothing against it, much to your dismay.
Particularly, looking into the "EVERYthing else" quote, this statement is made specifically within the contexts of the contents of Holocron. And in that respect, is pretty redundant as a source since you'd need to prove this article is actually in the Holocron in the first place.
I have a feeling it's not. hmm