Forum won't quote you like normal again. 😠
Little, not nothing. And it's not an invalid argument, it absolutely has to be considered. If he weren't a scientific genius, he may well know about various important battles, and what weapons were used in them, without understanding them on the fundamental level that he clearly does.I'm arguing that he's never shown an intimate understanding of martial arts on the level that he showed an intimate understanding of that weapon. I've seen him fight, I've never seen him demonstrate more skill than Wolverine possesses.
You tried to argue that he knew all that because of genius and learning history. He blatantly attributes his knowing it all to being a god of battle, and says there's very little about war and weaponry he doesn't know. Unless you're going to argue he's a god of battle because of a lot of studying? Well, that would include fighting, since he says war, and fighting skills are part of war.
And we have seen him use skill to compensate, fighting an apparently skilled opponent who's stronger than him. Being the type of character he is, he won't get skill as emphasized as others like Wolverine. But regardless, whether you think he hasn't shown the skill Wolverine has or not, Azrael is not like Orion as you tried to argue.
The ninja trick is Wolverine's, not Wolverine's and Sabertooth's. And using stealth isn't regulated to using the ninja trick, especially if Orion's blinded by Spider-man. The only reason I brought up those stealth scans, is because you claimed he could sense them even while blind, and I wanted to show that sensing some mooks is not the same as sensing two of Marvel's stealthiest characters.
Yeah, I was probably thinking Sabertooth too since from what I remember they've shared some(obviously not all) of the same training. Anyways, this is a fight in a featureless battlefield. I was referring to them using stealth in general when he can fight at super speed despite being blind. So unless you think all those stealth examples were of those perceiving at super speed.....
You seem not to understand that this is an argument of degrees. You claimed it was no more impressive for Wolverine to move faster than mobsters/soldiers could see, than it was for Orion to move faster than a child could see.Hence me quoting the last finding, the part "at least to some degree, some trained individuals can actively turn on slow-time perception and processing. This is part of the process of “pumping up” used by skilled athletes preparing for a difficult performance." Note, the "at least to some degree." Yes increased time perception, no Matrix like ability to see in slow motion.
Those who are unskilled don't just panic, they are unable to perceive things moving at speeds that skilled people are able to perceive.
No, I understand it. The problem was your argument was flawed. You argued the soldiers and mobsters do have greater time perception 'cuz skill. But the article you cited is about different hypotheses. Theories. Training being able to activate this is only one.
We don't know the actual speed in either example, all we know is it's too fast for others to see. Them being trained, unless the comic said the training did this, doesn't mean it would take more speed to move too fast for them to see than a random untrained person. Hence the comparison of a race car driver's car not starting.
Again, not my argument, yours. You yourself said you aren't arguing Orion is as fast as Superman. Then why show a fight where he's fighting someone faster than Superman? Is it toa) show that he is in fact faster than Superman? This contradicts your earlier statement.
b) show a fight where he isn't moving faster than Superman? Then we don't know how fast he's moving, or have any way to judge it compared to the speeds Wolverine, Sabetooth, and Spider-man are capable of fighting at.
If it's a, then you're changing your argument, and the debate will change. If it's b, then it doesn't prove what you want it to prove, and we can ignore it and continue the debate without it.
I can see where you'd think that, but it's not what I argued. I was arguing Pre-DOS Superman's speed, not Superman period. I said as much.
Originally posted by Delta1938
One of Darkseid's few speed feats was moving so fast Pre-DOS Superman didn't even see him move.
Or here when I made it clear that despite the graphic novel the scans were from, it took place before Clark even took the Superman identity.
Originally posted by Delta1938
This is a graphic novel from 1999, but it takes place before Clark even became Superman. In fact, since it has him finding out he's bulletproof earlier, it can be argued he's less powerful(therefore slower) than when Byrne rebooted him. Clark fights thousands(estimated near 20,000) from the Chinese Army and moves too fast for them to see.Pre-DOS Superman(I'm using "pre" somewhat loosely, including comics that take place before DEATH OF SUPERMAN even if published after) has better feats than this, as well, so I'm not grabbing that era's best feat. Darkseid(unless it Desaad duplicating Darkseid and pretending to be him) still moved too fast for Superman in that era could see.
I would only be contradicting myself if I thought Superman hadn't gotten faster since that encounter with Darkseid. But then, if I thought that, why would I bother making the distinction it was Pre-DOS at all?
If he was flying to achieve superspeed, then the kicks didn't need to be superfast. After all, I've never doubted he's super strong, and after a super fast, super strong opening kick, it's bound to give him time to land the others. I know now that he wasn't flying, but it looked like it to me, and in general, when I'm asked to believe either someone else, or my own lying eyes, I tend to go with my own lying eyes. It led to me making a mistake here, and I've acknowledged it.
For the record, it seemed he wasn't far from Darkseid after being knocked away before the kick, and looking at the multiple panels, seems to be he's repeatedly doing the kick, actually.
Sorry, I did miss it. Azrael's job is to smite who God tells him to smite, lead souls to the afterlife, and, in the case of beings who cheat death, to smite them when death should claim them.Wolverine beat him the first time his healing factor saved him from death, and that was Azrael's one shot, at least on this plane. Wolverine also beat him in the afterlife, each time he almost died in the comics, and it pissed Azrael off, especially since Wolverine kept killing such large amounts of folks.
There also might be a connection between them. Wolverine is the reincarnation of the Hand of God, a warrior chosen by God to slay evil, back in biblical times. Azrael told Wolverine he wasn't immune to envy, and said Wolverine had killed far too many people. Was he jealous that another of God's servants was kinda doing his job better than he did? Maybe. There's nothing there about Wolverine having some special supernatural reason for being more skilled than him, though.
Oh, there is one thing. Wolverine's first win meant Azrael couldn't beat him on Earth anymore, but the fight where Wolverine outskills him takes place on Earth, so it's skewed, right? Wrong, that only applied to a fully souled Wolverine, and part of his soul was trapped as Shogun, the other guy he's fighting. So that fight was all skill too.
Thanks for replying to it, but this doesn't actually explain why he made the deal he did over the soul. If anything it's making me scratch my head more.
No it doesn't, but Zack included it among his abilities, so I did too, when listing Astro Force abilities. Didn't mean to imply I thought Orion was normal size on New Genesis.
No, I didn't take it as you implying that. I was pointing-out I don't think it's an example of him growing, but using the Astro-Force to make an image of himself. Considering the color, that we don't see a full Orion, the energy all around the Orion image and we even see a beam of energy from the star insignia on the helmet. That's why I said I wasn't familiar with this when you described it(before posting the scan), when I actually had read the comic, because I never thought of it as him growing in size.
Listen, senses adapting in the absence of another sense doesn't require a conscious decision. It's far more nonsensical to argue that because his senses were heightened after months of being blind, that he would require no time to adapt to being blinded mid fight.
Your argument is that he'd adapt just because he had months. It's not just an increase in senses but actually becoming accustomed to using them. He's not going to get used to moving around with his increased senses when he's literally restrained and can move like his head. While being drained. And really, really emo.
