Originally posted by Ize19
Right, and i acknowledged that, when I said the way we give it credibility is by keeping track of who has those feats. But even if we don't hold him to the calc's durability, it's because of the calculation that we hold it as such an impressive feat, right? Similarly, with moving too fast to be seen, even if we don't give them the speed technically required to do that, if it's not just a high showing, but something they're depicted as doing regularly, it's an indication of super speed, right?I have never, I repeat, never claimed that Wolverine was as fast as even pre-DOS Superman, look at the post you originally responded to, as well as my early posts in this thread. The point I was making here, wasn't "It's bias to say Wolverine isn't as fast as Superman, look at these feats that match him!"
Instead, it was to say, clearly the feats I matched were seen as indications of super speed, probably super sonic speed at the least, otherwise why post them? And since those feats are easily matchable by the slowest guy on this team, why are we so quick to assert that they don't have super speed?
First off, using Batman as someone who we "know" the abilities of isn't the best example.Just look at what happened to the Tiers thread when someone argued that Batman's explicitly meta human level equipment justified putting him into the meta category, everybody on both sides lost their minds, and the thread was closed. Clearly the Zod fight was PIS, on the level of the Surfer armbar, but also clearly, DC wants to portray Batman a certain way. I see both sides here, but really, he's his own issue.
In my last post, I gave you reasons that Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-man could legitimately have super speed, and you still want to compare them to Batman and Batgirl, two people you see as street levelers. Batman's thorny, but that aside, there is a clear distinction between human street levelers, and the metas on this team. Spider-man has always had superhuman speed, and Wolverine has had comparable (not equal) speed to him for a couple of decades now.
And none of this is even getting into the fact that dodging supersonic projectiles is easier by an order of magnitude at least than outracing one, which is the example you gave with Wonder Woman. And again, here especially Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-man have a great case for having greater reaction speed than you guys are crediting them with, since they not only have their speed feats, but superhuman senses, and limited pre-cog, respectively.
I already have Abhi's answer, but I want to know yours as well. How fast exactly do you think the Iron Fist-Spider-man tier of speed is?
Splitting stuff into quotes usually turns into long posts of quote/unquote, so I'd rather not.
As I've previously stated, I don't put much weight into cosmic cheese, the same way I don't put it into street level 'cheese'. They don't hold under scrutiny when you add math, and the implications of it would be absurd. Superman is not infinitely durable. Street levelers aren't supersonic. Batman isn't capable of reacting to lightspeed attacks. Cassandra Cain can't run at greater than Mach 1. It's common sense. The feats are heavily dependent on context and general logic - if you see a street leveler reacting at math-speed of supersonic/near-light you think "heh, that's stupid, but it looks cool", but when you see a character that is historically a high-end speedster you think "nice feat". Like I said, it's not a double standards, once you read enough comics.
The Wonder Woman example was used to better illustrate the difference between a street leveler doing the feat, and an actual speedster [which Wonder Woman is] doing the feat. It's irrelevant how close to the speed of light that feat would make her, that's just semantics.
You might'be noticed that I didn't address Wolverine vs early Superman speed [lol], until you brought it up - to correct the impression that Wolverine is anywhere near close to matching his feats. Some of them? Sure, because they're not impressive. I could have matched them using Batman, or a shitload of other street levelers. I haven't read what you're talking about with Delta in its entirety, but the part where you said Wolverine is supersonic popped up on the page, and that's what I wanted to address.
Wolverine, superhuman speed or not, is not a speedster. Superhuman =/= speedster. I compare Wolverine to street levelers, because he fights street levelers, and your position would be feasible either if:
a). Street levelers are literal statues to Wolverine in combat.
b). All top-end street levelers are supersonic, to keep up with Wolverine.
Either of those positions are absurd.
I brought up Batman because he's in the same range of physical capabilities with Wolverine, and he has feats that would put him at supersonic/lightspeed, in order to emphasize the absurdity of feats and math over common sense. I could have brought up Captain America. Or Daredevil. Or Batgirl. All of them have supersonic speed feats, by calculations, but we don't put them at that level, because we read comics, and we know their abilities.
As for your question about Iron Fist/Spider-Man, what exactly are you asking, numbers? Why are you trying to make this about math, instead of general range of abilities? Batman, Captain America, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Nightwing etc. are all in the same 'tier' of speed, +- some percentages, and all of them are slower than the goddamn speed of sound (340 meters/second in case anybody is not familiar with it).
Originally posted by Delta1938
LoB is pretty bad, but carter is worse in every way. But if you'd rather have carter.....that's more an indication of poor judgment than any objective win. vinYou're misunderstanding. You're taking what was said about Azrael as fact because of the statement, while trying to rationalize away what Orion said "as knowledge of history and science." You're actually making up dialogue that wasn't in the comic. He doesn't say "there's very little about the history of war and science of weaponry I don't know." He straight up said "there's little about war and weaponry I don't know."
My point was you've given nothing for Azrael that's actually like what I posted for Orion, and you're trying to rationalize what I gave for Orion as "no it's not what you said," while arguing Azrael's skill because of what Doctor Strange said, not that one statement was valid and the other wasn't.
I don't think Orion needs to blitz them to win based on what I've seen, but you seem to be using high-end feats for them. And that's fair enough, as long as you're not dismissing what I bring as "outliers."
I'm simply more impressed by the awareness and precision of Orion pulling off that feat while unable to see than the stealth feats you've posted. To throw a small object with accuracy to have it go right in a space not much bigger, assuming it's thrown straight, from a distance away when he can't even see his target makes me think he won't have the trouble you're arguing. Unless you think he's just going to stand there for several seconds.
You specifically said training does increase time perceptions. Did you post that even knowing that your source was about competing hypotheses?
Well first, I haven't seen any feats at all to support this. Second, even if we go with this, I do not see how you can say that Pre-DOS Superman isn't leagues beyond. Him moving faster than can be reacted to or even seen is meh for him. You showed feats for Wolverine comparable to Superman's meh feats. Are you arguing those are Wolverine's meh feats?
Take a look at what Phil posted about what a microsecond is to a full second. What does Wolverine have remotely close to that?
You didn't show anything remotely comparable to him perceiving lightning moving in slow motion. Lightning actually goes from cloud to ground then back(although IIRC sometimes it's reverse). The down strike moves at about 220,000 miles per-hour.
http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524
That's well over 200 times the speed of sound(a bit over 285 times). And Superman saw this in slow motion. Unless you're arguing that Wolverine is that level of supersonic, then Wolverine would be frozen by comparison. Or look at what Phil wrote about what a microsecond is to a full second. Darkseid, however, moved faster than this early era Superman could see. And Orion fought him at super speed.
I meant Azrael putting such emphasis on Wolverine's difficulty with Azrael being attributed to what was going on with Wolverine's soul came off as it was his soul that Azrael had trouble with, or something about it was causing Azrael problems.
If you're going to argue that he needed time while acknowledging that he'd been drained and wasn't in good shape, that's straw grasping. Orion's going to be healthy here, and it's not like he's going to just stand around. He's more than aware enough, including at super speed, to be fine in whatever time his eyes are actually covered.
😖hifty: I understand, telling the difference between "hypotheses" and "fact" is hard for you, so I can see you'd think I meant "wrong." [csm]vin[csm]
Originally posted by Ize19
Lol, sorry, but if you think preferring LoB is a sign of anything but sharing his Superman fandom, then it's your judgment that's impaired. 😄No, I'm not making anything up. I know what he said, I quoted it in that portion of my post you're responding to. My point was, even if he said that, all he demonstrated was a knowledge of history and science. So, you want to claim Strange's statement of skill isn't equal to Orion's statement of skill, because Orion's encompassed war and weaponry, and Strange's encompassed Wolverine's vast history of fighting incredibly skilled beings.How is Strange's statement at all inferior.
Nope, now that I understand your argument fully, no dismissal.
It's good, but they've stealthed better. As I showed.
Ok, not accepted. Then here we go:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950412/The paper about competing hypotheses is this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384265/
The article I posted, the first link, references that paper at the beginning and end of the article. The article I posted isn't about the competing hypotheses, but instead is about the evidence the researcher has gathered from "four decades' ethnographic experience in these activities, including >30000 participant-hours direct observation of practitioner behavior and emotions, multiple face-to-face and electronic communications with 20 highly skilled exponents, and 60 autoethnographic analyses of narrow-escape incidents." "These activities" being high-risk, high-skill outdoor recreation.
From the evidence the researcher gathered, he came to three findings. I've already posted them, but I'll mention them again.
The first finding, is people are capable of "accelerated physical action as well as accelerated mental processing." He says this includes, ie goes up to, "extremely fine and fast physical adjustments to control body and equipment very powerfully and precisely, in response to equally fast and detailed perceptions of one's own body and the surrounding environment," aka Matrix reflexes. The upper speeds he mentions here were triggered by accidental falls.
The second finding, and the title of the article, "is that slow-time perception and action can be learned unconsciously, through experience and training." Here he does not mention Matrix style reflexes, but the kind of enhanced reactions that athletes pull off every day, and it's because of this finding that I brought up the paper. Again, to quote him
"Skilled surfers can adjust their boards and bodies in freefall takeoff on large steep hollow waves at exactly the angle to ride the wave as the lip barrels over their head. Skilled kayakers can adjust boat, body, and paddle so as to take exactly the one survivable line through rapids and over waterfalls. Less skilled participants perceive only confusion, and are likely to freeze, panic, or act in ways which increase danger (Buckley, 2012). It is also experience and training which allow skilled exponents of many physical arts to achieve feats which appear impossibly fast and precise."
He put this forward as evidence that the conclusion of the paper you mentioned, is accurate. And his third finding "is that at least to some degree, some trained individuals can actively turn on slow-time perception and processing." Again, this refers to the Matrix style reflexes you thought I was bringing up, but which I wasn't basing my argument on.
So, in summary. There is a phenomenon that takes place, wherein people have slowed time perception, and the ability to react at extreme speeds during it. The paper you mentioned compares various hypotheses for this, dismisses two, and suggests a preference for one. The paper I brought up gave evidence to support the first papers conclusions, including loads of data that included athletes being capable of regularly perceiving and reacting to stimulus much faster than non athletes, and the researcher found that training did increase ones time perception, although not to the extreme degree that the phenomenon did. He sees this as support for the belief that we can eventually train to achieve this phenomenon at will, and asks several questions at the end to further that goal.
Read what I wrote to Phil. I'm not arguing that Wolverine is as fast as pre-DoS Superman here, simply questioning why you included feats you think are meh? I agree, Wolverine isn't that fast, but he has reactions to things that are, and I would argue that due to his speed feats, and his senses and skill, that isn't PIS. Same for Spider-man, his speed and spidey sense. Orion will be faster than them, but they won't be statues, and he won't be able to blitz them.
Got it, thanks for clearing it up.
I'm arguing that he'd need time to adjust, and pointed out that he had far longer than would be necessary to do so. Who knows, maybe it was necessary that first time, we don't really know. What we do know, is that you posted blind Orion feats and said that negated the spider web tactic, but you don't have any evidence that it wouldn't affect him for a little while, since the only time he's been blind, he never had a chance to demonstrate the instant adjustment you're assuming.
At least I can tell the difference between an article and the article it's referencing 😛 . Or hey, maybe you think A=/A, which would explain why you think Orion wins! 😆
He's in the same meta street category as this team. I wanted to know how fast Phil thinks they are, so I gave him the range I'm looking for. Seemed pretty clear cut to me.
YOU SCUM WOULD DO WELL TO NEVER MENTION MY NAME WITH SUCH DISRESPECT!!!!!
Originally posted by Delta1938
Why is carter better?This isn't even scratching the surface. Why is carter better than LoB again?
Yeah... I'm not going to the trouble of gathering all the quotes and examples I'd need to respond, for a joke...
Your only way to argue this is to say that Orion's statement means "I know the history of war and science behind weaponry." That's not what the comic said. You gave nothing like what I showed for Orion. He demonstrated that and attributed it to his "god of battle" status. He said there's little about WAR and weaponry he doesn't know, and it's a grasp to argue he only meant history and science.
No, it's not what he said, it's just all he demonstrated. We have two bits of lip service, Orion saying "There is little about war and weaponry I do not know" and Dr. Strange saying Azrael is the most skilled opponent Wolverine has ever faced. One is backed up by knowledge that has no bearing on this fight, or indeed his skills in melee combat at all, and the other only had one arc, and faced one opponent, who was more skilled than him. Of course, it was mentioned that he'd been smiting immortals for millenia, and that it had been centuries since someone had beaten him.
Neither statement of skill is objectively superior to the other, neither have anything of relevance backing up that statement of skill. That's why it's called "on paper."
So, where have they stealthed someone with a similar feat? If you argue Daredevil, you showed him snuck up on when he was sleeping, and even if it's been accomplished to Daredevil awake, his radar sense makes it unlikely to be comparable.
Sabertooth stealthed Wolverine while he was alert, giving full reign to his senses, and specifically searching for him. Wolverine stealthed Jean Grey while she was telepathically monitoring everyone around her.
First, sorry, I had to cut most of your response to save space, my post otherwise would be over the character limit.Well one, none of this answers my question if you posted that training gives improved time perception without knowing the article is about hypotheses.
That's not what the article is about. It's about the evidence he had gathered to support a particular hypothesis. Yes, I knew he was trying to support a hypothesis, but I wasn't arguing that the hypothesis was correct, simply that his evidence supported my claim.
Second, what are you trying to argue? That they do get improved time perception with training? Or that training will mean they handle things better?
The first, but not to the extent that happens in life or death scenarios. Enough that there's a noticeable difference in the perceptions of trained gunmen and young, untrained teenagers.
If it's the first, the entire argument is based on that article. You're arguing that it's proven? The article says this at the end."This evidence supports the suggestion by Arstila (2012) that humans possess a specialized hormonal or neurophysiological mechanism for high-speed cognition; and that this is activated inadvertently by real fear of imminent violent death in accidents, emergencies, and certain extreme sports; and may on some occasions be activated intentionally by individuals who have trained themselves to do so. This raises three questions. Firstly, why is this mechanism only turned on occasionally? Presumably, it has high metabolic costs or side effects which reduce biological fitness if it is activated continually. Secondly, if some individuals have learned to activate slow-time perception, processing and action, what is the mechanism?"
If the article proves that training does improve it, why would it say they MAY on some occasions be activated intentionally? Why the question of why it's only turned on occasionally? Well it says presumably why, but then again it's still a theory that's what's even happening. After all, the article also asks what is the mechanism if they are activating it. And the studies are based on anecdotal evidence.
If it's you're arguing that they'd be able to handle things better instead of they'd have improved time perception, what use is training if something's too fast for them to see? All the driving skill in the world won't help if the car doesn't start. Training to handle it better is irrelevant if their adversary is too fast for a human to see.
Because the hypothesis he is trying to support is about a much more advanced form of improved time perception, which we currently don't fully understand. The evidence he collects to support that hypothesis shows that training has the effect of improving a persons time perception, and he theorizes that with a better understanding of it, training could have a much greater effect, and enable us to actively turn on the "matrix" reflexes at will. That part? Not what I'm arguing, and not why I referenced him. The first part is what I'm arguing, and I believe it is evidence that Wolverine's feats were more impressive than that Orion feat.
I know you're not arguing Wolverine is as fast. But you said this.Well if you only focus on the moving faster than humans can react or even see, you could come to that conclusion. But I included them because it seems that Wolverine moving faster than can be seen is pretty much his best, or at least he doesn't have much better. Superman doing that, even in that era, is meh. There's nothing remotely close to the microsecond example(actually it was less than a microsecond), nor the lightning example, and Superman has better feats than those. If I'm right about Wolverine's better/best feats being those, Superman's mediocre feats at least match Wolverine, and you don't even need to bring out his best to put those to shame.
Orion fought someone who moved too fast for this Superman to even see. In regards to comparing speed, Wolverine being the slowest isn't relevant unless you're going to argue Spider-Man or Sabertooth are hundreds of times faster than Wolverine.
Ah, I see the misunderstanding. The feats I matched, and the feats that weren't leagues above, were the same feats. I thought that a couple of the feats I put up weren't 1:1 comparisons, but more like .8:1 or .7:1. Sorry for the confusion.
That's not what your post suggested. Including them mixed in with the others, implied that they were supposed to be seen as impressive as well, which is why I could only reason that you weren't familiar with the level of speed the team had.
Has he ever moved too fast for Superman to see? Looked faster than Superman in a direct confrontation? I know he's had various interactions with him, you should have plenty to draw from.
He got up after being drained for months. This is not a very good argument. And how long do you actually think he'd need to adjust, given his speed? What's "a little while" for him is not the same for the others, even if I give everybody here supersonic speed, which I don't feel has been justified.
You keep trying to act like this is my problem, but it's actually yours. You need a feat of him making an instant adjustment, I don't need a feat of him failing to adjust. True, so instead of a few minutes, it takes 30-45 seconds. Still too long against these guys.
But missed the majority is based on questioning what people experienced? After all, you can't actually
Finish a sentence? Sure I can, watch me! 😛
Abhi, Phil, I'll post my response to you guys tomorrow. Good night.
Just came to see if LoB replied. I was not disappointed. I'll read and reply to ya later Ize.
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
[B]DAMN LIES!!!!THERE WON'T BE ANY QUOTES BECAUSE I, THE MIGHTY LOB, HAVE NEVER LOST A DEBATE ON KMC!! [/B]
Why does this sound familiar? mhmm Oh yeah.
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I guess LoB wins this one then.
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
[B]NO ONE CAN DEFEAT THE LORD OF BATTLEZONES!!!! [/B]
Originally posted by Delta1938
DarkSaint.😗
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Twice 💃
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
[B]I WAS ROBBED TWICE IN AN ABSOLUTE PERVERSION OF JUSTICE!!! [/B]
Originally posted by Delta1938
I didn't see the other one, but you lost the one I judged in. You'll have to accept it.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here was the other one.
Originally posted by Delta1938
The dastardly devious DarkSaint once again strikes down the proud and noble Chihuahua!!!
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
[B]I. LOST. NOTHING!!!! [/B]
Originally posted by Delta1938
I'd say you're losing your dignity now over it, but you'd have to have that to begin with. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Technically, that's true.As you never debated with anyone. Unless you count that time you talked with your fridge while delirious.
LoB won here where carter conceded.
Originally posted by carver9
I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.When does fts matter?
I am going to use Hulk as an example because if I bash him or give him props, you all don't care, any other character/characters and this thread goes off topic.
It seems like most threads either look at fts when they want too or either ignore them.
Example...if I made a Hulk vs Orion fist fight thread, people would say that it would be a challenging battle due to it, well, being Orion. Hulk has the strength, durability and power edge and based off fts, he should be able to crush Orion with ease but in this case, fts would get ignored (I've debated pages on this battle, I know first hand).
If we made a Captain Marvel vs Wonder Woman or Superman thread, people would say that either of these two is a tier above him due to fts. So on one hand we ignore fts and on another, we pay attention to fts.
So what I'm trying to figure out is, when do we ignore or pay attention to fts? If I made a Titus vs Hulk thread, would you all consider that spite even though Hulk fts of strength and durability piss on anything Titus has done.
If I made a Superman vs Odin thread, would you all consider it spite due to Superman fts of strength, speed and durability. Please let me know and let's keep this convo civil.
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Carver, I will provide the DEFINITIVE answer to your question.[b]EXHIBIT A
- Sungod VERSUS HulkHere, Sungod, clearly displays his superiority over the Hulk in a way that NO ONE can dispute.
EXHIBIT B- Hyperion VERSUS HULK
This provides the MOST DEFINITIVE proof on how to apply both feats and fights.
Here, Hyperion, Dominates, Hulk, to the point where......
HYPERION PUNCHES THE GAMMA RADIATION OUT OF THE HULK.
As with, Sungod, this CLEARLY places, Hyperion, above The Hulk
I hope this answers your question, Carver!
Have a great weekend! [/B]
Originally posted by carver9
😂 😂 @LOB
Originally posted by carver9
I can't even argue with him on that one. That was amazing.
I mean, that was like the winner of two people on the short bus getting into a slap fight, but LoB has won something.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So Batman is excluded because he is human but Wolverine and Spider-Man are included because they are metas?Way to go.
But tell me, is Batman faster than Wolverine because he dodges heat vision on consistent basis over the decades?
Nah, Batman is excluded because he's so hard to talk about without everybody going crazy, one war or another. The thing about Wolverine and Spider-man being metas is just me pointing out that even by Phil's standards, there's justification for them being faster than the streets he's mentioning.
He'd have an argument, if Wolverine hadn't been dodging lasers on a consistent basis over the decades.
Originally posted by abhilegend
At what level? Do we have a single showings of Wolverine or Spider-Man which shows or states that they are moving faster than speed of sound?Not dodging something. Because then Batman will be lightspeed.
I will take even a short burst speed of Mach 1 into credit.
Here you go:
They're facing off, then they both make their move, we're shown the moment the electric blast strikes, and how far Wolverine's gotten in that time frame.
Originally posted by Philosophia
As I've previously stated, I don't put much weight into cosmic cheese, the same way I don't put it into street level 'cheese'. They don't hold under scrutiny when you add math, and the implications of it would be absurd. Superman is not infinitely durable. Street levelers aren't supersonic. Batman isn't capable of reacting to lightspeed attacks. Cassandra Cain can't run at greater than Mach 1. It's common sense. The feats are heavily dependent on context and general logic - if you see a street leveler reacting at math-speed of supersonic/near-light you think "heh, that's stupid, but it looks cool", but when you see a character that is historically a high-end speedster you think "nice feat". Like I said, it's not a double standards, once you read enough comics.
Of course it's a double standard, it fits the definition to a t. The question isn't is it a double standard, the question is if it's justified.
The Wonder Woman example was used to better illustrate the difference between a street leveler doing the feat, and an actual speedster [which Wonder Woman is] doing the feat. It's irrelevant how close to the speed of light that feat would make her, that's just semantics.
Not my point. We see a street leveler dodging a bullet, we go "as expected." We see a street leveler outrunning a bullet, we start to think, "when did they become a speedster." It's not the same feat, and you know it.
You might'be noticed that I didn't address Wolverine vs early Superman speed [lol], until you brought it up - to correct the impression that Wolverine is anywhere near close to matching his feats. Some of them? Sure, because they're not impressive. I could have matched them using Batman, or a shitload of other street levelers. I haven't read what you're talking about with Delta in its entirety, but the part where you said Wolverine is supersonic popped up on the page, and that's what I wanted to address.
I didn't post Delta's feats, he did. I was expecting to see feats comparable to other speedsters, to get a better idea of where Pre-DOS Superman fit in there, and I got a bunch of feats that were comparable to this team. The other feats helped, but that bunch confused me, so I responded. There is no impression Wolverine is capable of matching his feats, just to be clear.
Wolverine, superhuman speed or not, is not a speedster. Superhuman =/= speedster. I compare Wolverine to street levelers, because he fights street levelers, and your position would be feasible either if:
a). Street levelers are literal statues to Wolverine in combat.
b). All top-end street levelers are supersonic, to keep up with Wolverine.Either of those positions are absurd.
And how fast is superhuman? I agree he's not a speedster, but back in the classic Quicksilver days, not only did mach 1 make you a speedster, 160 mph did! I'd say the bars gone up over the years, what with power inflation and all.
Wolverine doesn't only, or even primarily, fight street levelers though. He's generally too fast for the true street levelers, and the elite definitely aren't mach 1, but they're also not limited to real life human speed (today, the fastest puncher in the world punches at 43 mph). The third option is that they're not as fast, but they're fast enough to use skill/senses to compete.
I brought up Batman because he's in the same range of physical capabilities with Wolverine, and he has feats that would put him at supersonic/lightspeed, in order to emphasize the absurdity of feats and math over common sense. I could have brought up Captain America. Or Daredevil. Or Batgirl. All of them have supersonic speed feats, by calculations, but we don't put them at that level, because we read comics, and we know their abilities.
Only if you go by feats, instead of character description. Reaction feats, absolutely. Combat/movement feats? Definitely Cap, but he's above street level too. I'm not aware of any for the other two.
As for your question about Iron Fist/Spider-Man, what exactly are you asking, numbers? Why are you trying to make this about math, instead of general range of abilities? Batman, Captain America, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Nightwing etc. are all in the same 'tier' of speed, +- some percentages, and all of them are slower than the goddamn speed of sound (340 meters/second in case anybody is not familiar with it).
Because I think it gives us some clarity. I'm asking for a general range of speed, what you think they can do, instead of what they can't.
Originally posted by Ize19
[B]Nah, Batman is excluded because he's so hard to talk about without everybody going crazy, one war or another.
Or you don't like to explain how Wolverine is fast because he is meta but Batman isn't because he is human.
The thing about Wolverine and Spider-man being metas is just me pointing out that even by Phil's standards, there's justification for them being faster than the streets he's mentioning.
No, there isn't. Until they are shown faster than the streets they are facing.
He'd have an argument, if Wolverine hadn't been dodging lasers on a consistent basis over the decades.
Just like Batman, huh?
Here you go:They're facing off, then they both make their move, we're shown the moment the electric blast strikes, and how far Wolverine's gotten in that time frame.
No, he blasts after Wolverine already jumps and hence Lightning strikes first and Logan is still in air. If Logan was faster than lightning, he would reach the attacker first and lightning would be shown still in air.
It just shows Logan being faster than the attacker. Not lightning.
You are again trying to calculate the art. The artist didn't take the scientific calculation in question and drew Logan proportional to lightning speed based on the distance.
You are making a planet out of a molehill.
Give me a statement which states that Logan moves at supersonic speed and not hyperboles and your view inserted into a page.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Or you don't like to explain how Wolverine is fast because he is meta but Batman isn't because he is human.
I do think Batman's fast. I was just pointing out his controversy.
No, there isn't. Until they are shown faster than the streets they are facing.
And they generally are. Just not untouchably so.
Just like Batman, huh?
Right, which is why I agreed with Phil that going by feats, Batman's in the same range. You said "faster".
No, he blasts after Wolverine already jumps and hence Lightning strikes first and Logan is still in air. If Logan was faster than lightning, he would reach the attacker first and lightning would be shown still in air.It just shows Logan being faster than the attacker. Not lightning.
Logan jumped, that's how he avoided it. He wasn't shown being faster than lightning, just faster than sound.
You are again trying to calculate the art. The artist didn't take the scientific calculation in question and drew Logan proportional to lightning speed based on the distance.You are making a planet out of a molehill.
Give me a statement which states that Logan moves at supersonic speed and not hyperboles and your view inserted into a page.
You challenged me to find a feat where it was shown or stated, I find one where it's shown, and you then switch to a demand for statement? Moving goalposts.
Originally posted by Ize19
I do think Batman's fast. I was just pointing out his controversy.
How fast? Wolverine level fast?
And they generally are. Just not untouchably so.
Is that so? I don't think Wolverine has shown that he is faster than say Captain America in any of his fights. Or Daredevil. Or Shang Chi. Or Elektra. Or Iron Fist.
Can you show me Wolverine actually being stated to be faster than any named A level street MA? Not dodging and stuff. Actually being considered faster by narration or the character which is not contradicted.
Right, which is why I agreed with Phil that going by feats, Batman's in the same range. You said "faster".
So Batman is in the same range as Wolverine in speed and he is human. So how come Wolverine is metahuman in speed.
Logan jumped, that's how he avoided it. He wasn't shown being faster than lightning, just faster than sound.
Where is that stated or shown?
You challenged me to find a feat where it was [B]shown or stated, I find one where it's shown, and you then switch to a demand for statement? Moving goalposts. [/B]
Where is it shown that Logan moves faster than sound? Because he jumped? Does this makes Batman faster than light?
HV is actually stated to be concentrated sunlight in that very same issue. Batman sees it coming and then jumps out of the way.