Orion (grounded) vs Wolverine/Sabertooth/Spiderman

Originally posted by Ize19
I'm ok with this being the standard, but where does that leave us? Which feats count, and to what extent? Keep in mind, we aren't discussing street levelers, but meta streets. And blackhole/supernova feats still get credibility with high heralds, as tabs are kept on who has them and who doesn't, so I feel that was a poorly chosen example.

Another point. Delta brought up several feats for Superman, which were matched by Wolverine, the slowest member of this team. Am I not allowed to post Wolverine's feats, because his must be subsonic or PIS, while he's allowed to post his, because his are clearly supersonic on account of it's Superman? How is this not circular logic?

At the beginning of this post, I said that I was ok with not calculating feats, but if we're not doing that, we need something to replace it. What else is there? Especially with characters like Wolverine and Sabertooth, who have healing factors which are continually adapting and evolving over time, increasing their general stats as well, and Spider-man, who is a character known for super speed, as well as for rarely utilizing his full potential. Just because they started out a certain way, doesn't mean they're stuck there indefinitely.

You didn't match Superman's feats, you only posted some feats that were a match, but the more impressive ones [seeing lightning in slow motion or reacting in microsecond] you certainly didn't, and can't. I mean, look at this:
One microsecond is to one second as one second is to 11.574 days
And tell me, does that look like Wolverine to you? From his perspective, in a second, to have 12 days pass? C'mon man, we both know that even IF there was a statement that would randomly throw microsecond in there, it would be hyperbole because Wolverine is not a near-light speedster.

This might look like double standards, but it's more about knowledge on how the Comic Book Universe works, which we both have. Just this last month, we've had Batman dodging heat vision after it was fired, heading straight towards him. It's a blatant light speed feat [HV explicitly moves at lightspeed], and you must have seen it since DarkSaint posted it a lot. But you'll never see anybody seriously argue that he is at that level. The same way you won't see me argue that Batgirl is supersonic, even though she explicitly dodges bullets inches from her face. On the other hand, if Wonder Woman would move her body out of the way after HV was fired towards her, it would be a near-lightspeed feat. If she'd outrun a bullet, she'd be supersonic. On the surface, it seems like the same thing, but why one and not the other? Because we KNOW Wonder Woman is a speedster and not a street leveler.

👆 DS is a knowledgeable and handsome poster. That's what I got.

It's exactly what I wanted to get across 👆

Originally posted by Ize19
Lol, if I have Carver on my team, you have Lord of Brooklyn. I think I'm happy with Carver.

LoB is pretty bad, but carter is worse in every way. But if you'd rather have carter.....that's more an indication of poor judgment than any objective win. vin

Originally posted by Ize19
There's nothing specific about it. It's a very general answer. "I'm a God of Battle, Arnicus. There is very little of War and Weaponry that I do not know." How is that not lip service? Again, if Orion could defeat Wolverine in a war of skill feats, you would have already tried. All you have is his "on-paper" skill, which is another way of saying, all you have are statements of skill to go on.

But Azrael's lip service is less than Orion's lip service, despite an extremely credible expert witness (Dr. Strange) because what, he never said "I'm the Angel of Death. There is very little of dying and killing that I do not know?" That seems like a very thin argument to claim superiority on. Especially when your lip service only mentions the history of war, and the science of weaponry, neither of which will help him in this fight.

You're misunderstanding. You're taking what was said about Azrael as fact because of the statement, while trying to rationalize away what Orion said "as knowledge of history and science." You're actually making up dialogue that wasn't in the comic. He doesn't say "there's very little about the history of war and science of weaponry I don't know." He straight up said "there's little about war and weaponry I don't know."

My point was you've given nothing for Azrael that's actually like what I posted for Orion, and you're trying to rationalize what I gave for Orion as "no it's not what you said," while arguing Azrael's skill because of what Doctor Strange said, not that one statement was valid and the other wasn't.

Originally posted by Ize19
(I edited out the parts of the quotes where we mentioned unconscious fighting, due to lack of relevance. They are otherwise unchanged."

If you weren't arguing he wouldn't blitz them, why not just say "so he blitzes them ftw. Thanks for the debate."?

I don't think Orion needs to blitz them to win based on what I've seen, but you seem to be using high-end feats for them. And that's fair enough, as long as you're not dismissing what I bring as "outliers."

Originally posted by Ize19
My point is, no one's arguing Orion didn't show great senses in that scene, it isn't proof that he'll have no trouble hitting Wolverine and Sabertooth while blind, especially if they go silent when they see he's been blinded.

I'm simply more impressed by the awareness and precision of Orion pulling off that feat while unable to see than the stealth feats you've posted. To throw a small object with accuracy to have it go right in a space not much bigger, assuming it's thrown straight, from a distance away when he can't even see his target makes me think he won't have the trouble you're arguing. Unless you think he's just going to stand there for several seconds.

Originally posted by Ize19
Wow, no ability to accept a concession on a point of discussion, huh? We disagree here, I think you're misreading the paper, you think I'm misreading it, I've already shown the parts that specifically support what I'm saying, you've stated again and again that the general purpose of the paper is not about what I'm saying, I'd like to drop it now.

You specifically said training does increase time perceptions. Did you post that even knowing that your source was about competing hypotheses?

Originally posted by Ize19
Supersonic attack speed, hypersonic reflexes.

Well first, I haven't seen any feats at all to support this. Second, even if we go with this, I do not see how you can say that Pre-DOS Superman isn't leagues beyond. Him moving faster than can be reacted to or even seen is meh for him. You showed feats for Wolverine comparable to Superman's meh feats. Are you arguing those are Wolverine's meh feats?

Take a look at what Phil posted about what a microsecond is to a full second. What does Wolverine have remotely close to that?

You didn't show anything remotely comparable to him perceiving lightning moving in slow motion. Lightning actually goes from cloud to ground then back(although IIRC sometimes it's reverse). The down strike moves at about 220,000 miles per-hour.

http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524

That's well over 200 times the speed of sound(a bit over 285 times). And Superman saw this in slow motion. Unless you're arguing that Wolverine is that level of supersonic, then Wolverine would be frozen by comparison. Or look at what Phil wrote about what a microsecond is to a full second. Darkseid, however, moved faster than this early era Superman could see. And Orion fought him at super speed.

Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, maybe that's what you meant, but that's not what's shown. Here's the scan I think you mean, if you meant another, post it please:

In this scan, Wolverine tells him "You also told me you couldn't beat me here on my turf." Wolverine's turf is the mortal realm, Azrael's inability to beat him in this realm is a result of Wolverine winning their WWI bout.

Azrael replies: "True. But that was when you were in full possession of your soul. That's no longer the case." So Wolverine used to be safe from Azrael in this world, but now he no longer is. Azrael is capable of beating him in the scans I showed, because Wolverine had a piece of his soul stolen. So when Wolverine outskilled him, it was an even playing field, and Wolverine was not at full power.

I meant Azrael putting such emphasis on Wolverine's difficulty with Azrael being attributed to what was going on with Wolverine's soul came off as it was his soul that Azrael had trouble with, or something about it was causing Azrael problems.

Originally posted by Ize19
Except you're the one who has to prove that webbing in the eyes will have no effect, and your one opportunity was blind Orion, and you have no proof that he made an instant transition. So, sucks to be you, man. 😛

If you're going to argue that he needed time while acknowledging that he'd been drained and wasn't in good shape, that's straw grasping. Orion's going to be healthy here, and it's not like he's going to just stand around. He's more than aware enough, including at super speed, to be fine in whatever time his eyes are actually covered.

Originally posted by Ize19
You spelled "wrong" incorrectly. It's ok, spelling is hard. 😂

😖hifty: I understand, telling the difference between "hypotheses" and "fact" is hard for you, so I can see you'd think I meant "wrong." [csm]vin[csm]

Originally posted by Philosophia
Black holes/supernovas get some sort of credibility, sure, but certainly not mathematical credibility. I mean, you must realize how easy it would be for me to argue that Superman has infinite durability [Black holes], and call it a day on the forum. But I don't because I know he doesn't, even though the numbers would certainly imply that. It certainly helps as a feat. but I put more stock in how the character is portrayed in relative fights, and where he generally stands.

Right, and i acknowledged that, when I said the way we give it credibility is by keeping track of who has those feats. But even if we don't hold him to the calc's durability, it's because of the calculation that we hold it as such an impressive feat, right? Similarly, with moving too fast to be seen, even if we don't give them the speed technically required to do that, if it's not just a high showing, but something they're depicted as doing regularly, it's an indication of super speed, right?

You didn't match Superman's feats, you only posted some feats that were a match, but the more impressive ones [seeing lightning in slow motion or reacting in microsecond] you certainly didn't, and can't. I mean, look at this:
One microsecond is to one second as one second is to 11.574 days
And tell me, does that look like Wolverine to you? From his perspective, in a second, to have 12 days pass? C'mon man, we both know that even IF there was a statement that would randomly throw microsecond in there, it would be hyperbole because Wolverine is not a near-light speedster.

I have never, I repeat, never claimed that Wolverine was as fast as even pre-DOS Superman, look at the post you originally responded to, as well as my early posts in this thread. The point I was making here, wasn't "It's bias to say Wolverine isn't as fast as Superman, look at these feats that match him!"

Instead, it was to say, clearly the feats I matched were seen as indications of super speed, probably super sonic speed at the least, otherwise why post them? And since those feats are easily matchable by the slowest guy on this team, why are we so quick to assert that they don't have super speed?

This might look like double standards, but it's more about knowledge on how the Comic Book Universe works, which we both have. Just this last month, we've had Batman dodging heat vision after it was fired, heading straight towards him. It's a blatant light speed feat [HV explicitly moves at lightspeed], and you must have seen it since DarkSaint posted it a lot. But you'll never see anybody seriously argue that he is at that level. The same way you won't see me argue that Batgirl is supersonic, even though she explicitly dodges bullets inches from her face. On the other hand, if Wonder Woman would move her body out of the way after HV was fired towards her, it would be a near-lightspeed feat. If she'd outrun a bullet, she'd be supersonic. On the surface, it seems like the same thing, but why one and not the other? Because we KNOW Wonder Woman is a speedster and not a street leveler.

First off, using Batman as someone who we "know" the abilities of isn't the best example.Just look at what happened to the Tiers thread when someone argued that Batman's explicitly meta human level equipment justified putting him into the meta category, everybody on both sides lost their minds, and the thread was closed. Clearly the Zod fight was PIS, on the level of the Surfer armbar, but also clearly, DC wants to portray Batman a certain way. I see both sides here, but really, he's his own issue.

In my last post, I gave you reasons that Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-man could legitimately have super speed, and you still want to compare them to Batman and Batgirl, two people you see as street levelers. Batman's thorny, but that aside, there is a clear distinction between human street levelers, and the metas on this team. Spider-man has always had superhuman speed, and Wolverine has had comparable (not equal) speed to him for a couple of decades now.

And none of this is even getting into the fact that dodging supersonic projectiles is easier by an order of magnitude at least than outracing one, which is the example you gave with Wonder Woman. And again, here especially Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-man have a great case for having greater reaction speed than you guys are crediting them with, since they not only have their speed feats, but superhuman senses, and limited pre-cog, respectively.

I already have Abhi's answer, but I want to know yours as well. How fast exactly do you think the Iron Fist-Spider-man tier of speed is?

...what does Iron-Fist have to do with anything?

😂

Summoning you anywhere on kmc is even easier than summoning Delph in the offtopic thread.

Originally posted by Delta1938
LoB is pretty bad, but carter is worse in every way. But if you'd rather have carter.....that's more an indication of poor judgment than any objective win. vin

Lol, sorry, but if you think preferring LoB is a sign of anything but sharing his Superman fandom, then it's your judgment that's impaired. 😄

You're misunderstanding. You're taking what was said about Azrael as fact because of the statement, while trying to rationalize away what Orion said "as knowledge of history and science." You're actually making up dialogue that wasn't in the comic. He doesn't say "there's very little about the history of war and science of weaponry I don't know." He straight up said "there's little about war and weaponry I don't know."

My point was you've given nothing for Azrael that's actually like what I posted for Orion, and you're trying to rationalize what I gave for Orion as "no it's not what you said," while arguing Azrael's skill because of what Doctor Strange said, not that one statement was valid and the other wasn't.

No, I'm not making anything up. I know what he said, I quoted it in that portion of my post you're responding to. My point was, even if he said that, all he demonstrated was a knowledge of history and science. So, you want to claim Strange's statement of skill isn't equal to Orion's statement of skill, because Orion's encompassed war and weaponry, and Strange's encompassed Wolverine's vast history of fighting incredibly skilled beings.How is Strange's statement at all inferior.

I don't think Orion needs to blitz them to win based on what I've seen, but you seem to be using high-end feats for them. And that's fair enough, as long as you're not dismissing what I bring as "outliers."

Nope, now that I understand your argument fully, no dismissal.

I'm simply more impressed by the awareness and precision of Orion pulling off that feat while unable to see than the stealth feats you've posted. To throw a small object with accuracy to have it go right in a space not much bigger, assuming it's thrown straight, from a distance away when he can't even see his target makes me think he won't have the trouble you're arguing. Unless you think he's just going to stand there for several seconds.

It's good, but they've stealthed better. As I showed.

You specifically said training does increase time perceptions. Did you post that even knowing that your source was about competing hypotheses?

Ok, not accepted. Then here we go:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950412/

The paper about competing hypotheses is this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384265/

The article I posted, the first link, references that paper at the beginning and end of the article. The article I posted isn't about the competing hypotheses, but instead is about the evidence the researcher has gathered from "four decades' ethnographic experience in these activities, including >30000 participant-hours direct observation of practitioner behavior and emotions, multiple face-to-face and electronic communications with 20 highly skilled exponents, and 60 autoethnographic analyses of narrow-escape incidents." "These activities" being high-risk, high-skill outdoor recreation.

From the evidence the researcher gathered, he came to three findings. I've already posted them, but I'll mention them again.

The first finding, is people are capable of "accelerated physical action as well as accelerated mental processing." He says this includes, ie goes up to, "extremely fine and fast physical adjustments to control body and equipment very powerfully and precisely, in response to equally fast and detailed perceptions of one's own body and the surrounding environment," aka Matrix reflexes. The upper speeds he mentions here were triggered by accidental falls.

The second finding, and the title of the article, "is that slow-time perception and action can be learned unconsciously, through experience and training." Here he does not mention Matrix style reflexes, but the kind of enhanced reactions that athletes pull off every day, and it's because of this finding that I brought up the paper. Again, to quote him

"Skilled surfers can adjust their boards and bodies in freefall takeoff on large steep hollow waves at exactly the angle to ride the wave as the lip barrels over their head. Skilled kayakers can adjust boat, body, and paddle so as to take exactly the one survivable line through rapids and over waterfalls. Less skilled participants perceive only confusion, and are likely to freeze, panic, or act in ways which increase danger (Buckley, 2012). It is also experience and training which allow skilled exponents of many physical arts to achieve feats which appear impossibly fast and precise."

He put this forward as evidence that the conclusion of the paper you mentioned, is accurate. And his third finding "is that at least to some degree, some trained individuals can actively turn on slow-time perception and processing." Again, this refers to the Matrix style reflexes you thought I was bringing up, but which I wasn't basing my argument on.

So, in summary. There is a phenomenon that takes place, wherein people have slowed time perception, and the ability to react at extreme speeds during it. The paper you mentioned compares various hypotheses for this, dismisses two, and suggests a preference for one. The paper I brought up gave evidence to support the first papers conclusions, including loads of data that included athletes being capable of regularly perceiving and reacting to stimulus much faster than non athletes, and the researcher found that training did increase ones time perception, although not to the extreme degree that the phenomenon did. He sees this as support for the belief that we can eventually train to achieve this phenomenon at will, and asks several questions at the end to further that goal.

Well first, I haven't seen any feats at all to support this. Second, even if we go with this, I do not see how you can say that Pre-DOS Superman isn't leagues beyond. Him moving faster than can be reacted to or even seen is meh for him. You showed feats for Wolverine comparable to Superman's meh feats. Are you arguing those are Wolverine's meh feats?

Take a look at what Phil posted about what a microsecond is to a full second. What does Wolverine have remotely close to that?

You didn't show anything remotely comparable to him perceiving lightning moving in slow motion. Lightning actually goes from cloud to ground then back(although IIRC sometimes it's reverse). The down strike moves at about 220,000 miles per-hour.

http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524

That's well over 200 times the speed of sound(a bit over 285 times). And Superman saw this in slow motion. Unless you're arguing that Wolverine is that level of supersonic, then Wolverine would be frozen by comparison. Or look at what Phil wrote about what a microsecond is to a full second. Darkseid, however, moved faster than this early era Superman could see. And Orion fought him at super speed.

Read what I wrote to Phil. I'm not arguing that Wolverine is as fast as pre-DoS Superman here, simply questioning why you included feats you think are meh? I agree, Wolverine isn't that fast, but he has reactions to things that are, and I would argue that due to his speed feats, and his senses and skill, that isn't PIS. Same for Spider-man, his speed and spidey sense. Orion will be faster than them, but they won't be statues, and he won't be able to blitz them.

I meant Azrael putting such emphasis on Wolverine's difficulty with Azrael being attributed to what was going on with Wolverine's soul came off as it was his soul that Azrael had trouble with, or something about it was causing Azrael problems.

Got it, thanks for clearing it up.

If you're going to argue that he needed time while acknowledging that he'd been drained and wasn't in good shape, that's straw grasping. Orion's going to be healthy here, and it's not like he's going to just stand around. He's more than aware enough, including at super speed, to be fine in whatever time his eyes are actually covered.

I'm arguing that he'd need time to adjust, and pointed out that he had far longer than would be necessary to do so. Who knows, maybe it was necessary that first time, we don't really know. What we do know, is that you posted blind Orion feats and said that negated the spider web tactic, but you don't have any evidence that it wouldn't affect him for a little while, since the only time he's been blind, he never had a chance to demonstrate the instant adjustment you're assuming.

😖hifty: I understand, telling the difference between "hypotheses" and "fact" is hard for you, so I can see you'd think I meant "wrong." [csm]vin[csm]

At least I can tell the difference between an article and the article it's referencing 😛 . Or hey, maybe you think A=/A, which would explain why you think Orion wins! 😆

Originally posted by cdtm
...what does Iron-Fist have to do with anything?

He's in the same meta street category as this team. I wanted to know how fast Phil thinks they are, so I gave him the range I'm looking for. Seemed pretty clear cut to me.

Originally posted by Ize19
Right, and i acknowledged that, when I said the way we give it credibility is by keeping track of who has those feats. But even if we don't hold him to the calc's durability, it's because of the calculation that we hold it as such an impressive feat, right? Similarly, with moving too fast to be seen, even if we don't give them the speed technically required to do that, if it's not just a high showing, but something they're depicted as doing regularly, it's an indication of super speed, right?

I have never, I repeat, never claimed that Wolverine was as fast as even pre-DOS Superman, look at the post you originally responded to, as well as my early posts in this thread. The point I was making here, wasn't "It's bias to say Wolverine isn't as fast as Superman, look at these feats that match him!"

Instead, it was to say, clearly the feats I matched were seen as indications of super speed, probably super sonic speed at the least, otherwise why post them? And since those feats are easily matchable by the slowest guy on this team, why are we so quick to assert that they don't have super speed?

First off, using Batman as someone who we "know" the abilities of isn't the best example.Just look at what happened to the Tiers thread when someone argued that Batman's explicitly meta human level equipment justified putting him into the meta category, everybody on both sides lost their minds, and the thread was closed. Clearly the Zod fight was PIS, on the level of the Surfer armbar, but also clearly, DC wants to portray Batman a certain way. I see both sides here, but really, he's his own issue.

In my last post, I gave you reasons that Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-man could legitimately have super speed, and you still want to compare them to Batman and Batgirl, two people you see as street levelers. Batman's thorny, but that aside, there is a clear distinction between human street levelers, and the metas on this team. Spider-man has always had superhuman speed, and Wolverine has had comparable (not equal) speed to him for a couple of decades now.

And none of this is even getting into the fact that dodging supersonic projectiles is easier by an order of magnitude at least than outracing one, which is the example you gave with Wonder Woman. And again, here especially Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-man have a great case for having greater reaction speed than you guys are crediting them with, since they not only have their speed feats, but superhuman senses, and limited pre-cog, respectively.

I already have Abhi's answer, but I want to know yours as well. How fast exactly do you think the Iron Fist-Spider-man tier of speed is?

Way to go.

But tell me, is Batman faster than Wolverine because he dodges heat vision on consistent basis over the decades?

Originally posted by Ize19
True, but they still write them as performing certain feats. If they consistently perform feats at a certain level, can we really say, "the writer didn't calculate it, so it doesn't matter that it requires this much speed"? Maybe, but it still leaves us needing some number to use...

Not dodging something. Because then Batman will be lightspeed.

I will take even a short burst speed of Mach 1 into credit.

Originally posted by abhilegend
At what level? Do we have a single showings of Wolverine or Spider-Man which shows or states that they are moving faster than speed of sound?

Not dodging something. Because then Batman will be lightspeed.

I will take even a short burst speed of Mach 1 into credit.

https://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS

Lol. Abhi SPECIFICALLY says NOT DODGING SOMETHING.

*cue Carver9*

Also, forgot to post this but Herc with Spiderman powers see bullets (and the world) in slow mo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Abhi SPECIFICALLY says WOLVERINE OR SPIDERMAN

*cue Carver9*

There truly is no limit to the stupidity.

Originally posted by Ize19
Lol, sorry, but if you think preferring LoB is a sign of anything but sharing his Superman fandom, then it's your judgment that's impaired. 😄

Why is carter better?

Here-- http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=16054994#post16054994

--carter claimes Wonder Woman's force field protects from black holes. I thought it wrong based on what I remembered of the storyline, but uncertain. You'll see digging I did that show it doesn't seem to be the force field carter claimed it was, that DarkSaint asked him if it was true, and carter just gets mad and dodges the question. So carter lied, or never actually read it and wasn't going to admit that much.

Later he brings-up Wonder Woman's fight against Amazo to argue Wonder Woman>Orion. I show on many occasions before he argued that Amazo wasn't impressive, including Wonder Woman stalemating him. But then he argues it's an amazing feat, when he needs it to be.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=16071801#post16071801

He tries to justify it, only after I had asked for a response to it, in different topics, at least twice.

He also argued a low showing for Orion to try and put Wonder Woman above in, that he later said he doesn't count that showing, in his "when do feats matter?" topic. Given his flip flopping on Amazo, I doubt he was joking.

Or him using J'onn's fight with Ultraman to try and argue against Superman.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583777&pagenumber=6#post16079508

When I show that Ultraman had been losing his powers, he tells me to read my own scan.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583777&pagenumber=6#post16079536

After his response, I literally ask if he's arguing Ultraman only started losing his powers after fighting J'onn. He said "yes."

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583777&pagenumber=7#post16079564

He even brings up Wonder Woman using her tiara against Superman in their SACRIFICE fight. The topic was a slugfest, so cutting isn't allowed.

This isn't even scratching the surface. Why is carter better than LoB again?

Originally posted by Ize19
No, I'm not making anything up. I know what he said, I quoted it in that portion of my post you're responding to. My point was, even if he said that, all he demonstrated was a knowledge of history and science. So, you want to claim Strange's statement of skill isn't equal to Orion's statement of skill, because Orion's encompassed war and weaponry, and Strange's encompassed Wolverine's vast history of fighting incredibly skilled beings.How is Strange's statement at all inferior.

Your only way to argue this is to say that Orion's statement means "I know the history of war and science behind weaponry." That's not what the comic said. You gave nothing like what I showed for Orion. He demonstrated that and attributed it to his "god of battle" status. He said there's little about WAR and weaponry he doesn't know, and it's a grasp to argue he only meant history and science.

Originally posted by Ize19
It's good, but they've stealthed better. As I showed.

So, where have they stealthed someone with a similar feat? If you argue Daredevil, you showed him snuck up on when he was sleeping, and even if it's been accomplished to Daredevil awake, his radar sense makes it unlikely to be comparable.

Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, not accepted. Then here we go:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950412/

The paper about competing hypotheses is this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384265/

First, sorry, I had to cut most of your response to save space, my post otherwise would be over the character limit.

Well one, none of this answers my question if you posted that training gives improved time perception without knowing the article is about hypotheses.

Second, what are you trying to argue? That they do get improved time perception with training? Or that training will mean they handle things better?

If it's the first, the entire argument is based on that article. You're arguing that it's proven? The article says this at the end.

"This evidence supports the suggestion by Arstila (2012) that humans possess a specialized hormonal or neurophysiological mechanism for high-speed cognition; and that this is activated inadvertently by real fear of imminent violent death in accidents, emergencies, and certain extreme sports; and may on some occasions be activated intentionally by individuals who have trained themselves to do so. This raises three questions. Firstly, why is this mechanism only turned on occasionally? Presumably, it has high metabolic costs or side effects which reduce biological fitness if it is activated continually. Secondly, if some individuals have learned to activate slow-time perception, processing and action, what is the mechanism?"

If the article proves that training does improve it, why would it say they MAY on some occasions be activated intentionally? Why the question of why it's only turned on occasionally? Well it says presumably why, but then again it's still a theory that's what's even happening. After all, the article also asks what is the mechanism if they are activating it. And the studies are based on anecdotal evidence.

If it's you're arguing that they'd be able to handle things better instead of they'd have improved time perception, what use is training if something's too fast for them to see? All the driving skill in the world won't help if the car doesn't start. Training to handle it better is irrelevant if their adversary is too fast for a human to see.

Originally posted by Ize19
Read what I wrote to Phil. I'm not arguing that Wolverine is as fast as pre-DoS Superman here, simply questioning why you included feats you think are meh? I agree, Wolverine isn't that fast, but he has reactions to things that are, and I would argue that due to his speed feats, and his senses and skill, that isn't PIS. Same for Spider-man, his speed and spidey sense. Orion will be faster than them, but they won't be statues, and he won't be able to blitz them.

I know you're not arguing Wolverine is as fast. But you said this.

Originally posted by Ize19
Yes, that leaves a few without comparisons, and even the ones with, they aren't all equal, but the point is [u]those feats aren't leagues above Wolverine.[/i] The other feats are very impressive, but it should be noted that Wolverine is actually the slowest member of his team. Given the experience this team brings, the speeds they've reacted to in the past, and their ability to work together, even this very impressive speed isn't enough to secure the win over them.

Well if you only focus on the moving faster than humans can react or even see, you could come to that conclusion. But I included them because it seems that Wolverine moving faster than can be seen is pretty much his best, or at least he doesn't have much better. Superman doing that, even in that era, is meh. There's nothing remotely close to the microsecond example(actually it was less than a microsecond), nor the lightning example, and Superman has better feats than those. If I'm right about Wolverine's better/best feats being those, Superman's mediocre feats at least match Wolverine, and you don't even need to bring out his best to put those to shame.

Orion fought someone who moved too fast for this Superman to even see. In regards to comparing speed, Wolverine being the slowest isn't relevant unless you're going to argue Spider-Man or Sabertooth are hundreds of times faster than Wolverine.

Originally posted by Ize19
I'm arguing that he'd need time to adjust, and pointed out that he had far longer than would be necessary to do so. Who knows, maybe it was necessary that first time, we don't really know. What we do know, is that you posted blind Orion feats and said that negated the spider web tactic, but you don't have any evidence that it wouldn't affect him for a little while, since the only time he's been blind, he never had a chance to demonstrate the instant adjustment you're assuming.

He got up after being drained for months. This is not a very good argument. And how long do you actually think he'd need to adjust, given his speed? What's "a little while" for him is not the same for the others, even if I give everybody here supersonic speed, which I don't feel has been justified.

Originally posted by Ize19
At least I can tell the difference between an article and the article it's referencing 😛 . Or hey, maybe you think A=/A, which would explain why you think Orion wins! 😆

But missed the majority is based on questioning what people experienced? After all, you can't actually

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
There truly is no limit to the stupidity.

He just proved Immortal Weapons > Spider Powers, though.

Shang had the same senses in Spider Island. Still got stomped by Bride of Nine Spiders. 😉

Originally posted by carver9
Also, forgot to post this but Herc with Spiderman powers see bullets (and the world) in slow mo.

Wolverine raped that version of Herc, btw.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wolverine raped that version of Herc, btw.

I know. I guess that proves Wolverine is faster than a bullet.

Originally posted by cdtm
He just proved Immortal Weapons > Spider Powers, though.

Shang had the same senses in Spider Island. Still got stomped by Bride of Nine Spiders. 😉

Are all Thors equal?

Kryptonians?

Green Lanterns?

They have the same powers, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Are all Thors equal?

Kryptonians?

Green Lanterns?

They have the same powers, no?

Quicker to just say "Prince of Orphans". 😛

Was hoping no one would bring logic into this (I figured Carver wouldn't, but chanced Stiltman overlooking it for the lulz 🙂 )

But ftr, Lord Rand was a key element of Shang winning round two, by landing a very weakened Iron Fist into a Shang kick.

Odds are, a healthy Danny could have solo'd.