Orion (grounded) vs Wolverine/Sabertooth/Spiderman

Originally posted by carver9
Abhi is asking Ize to post statements that would be next to impossible to find and it doesn't prove anything tbh. It's like asking ABHI to post a scan stating Superman reacting speed is greater than Wonder Woman. Hell, I can post a scan saying Wonder Woman is faster than Clark and I know for a fact he will not accept it.

You've written Superman before, in "Justice League Unlimited" and recently in the "Crisis on Two Earths" film. How does this version of Superman compare to the others you've written previously?
Mcduffie: One of the things about writing Superman in "Justice League" is that if you write him at his full potential, then there's no need for the rest of the Justice League. So, you always have to sort of power him down or kind of Worf-Effect him so he doesn't solve the entire problem in four seconds. You have to adjust him in a way that makes him less effective than he normally is. That's probably true for every member in a team book who has their own solo thing, but it's really obvious with Superman. In this case, one thing, we're starting off with a Superman who is much more powerful than he's ever been, which is fun as well. I generally have to write a Superman who is much weaker than he usually is. The problem of having him in a story that's not a finite one-off like this is, is that if Superman is at full power, he just fixes everything and there's nothing to do next month.

http://www.cbr.com/all-star-interview-dwayne-mcduffie/

That's a statement as well carver. Accept it!!!!

Originally posted by abhilegend
We know for a fact that Wolverine has a better sense of hearing and smell at that time. Daredevil flat out said that in Infinity War when Logan detected Iron Man doppelganger and Matt couldn't.

Smell, yes. Also supported by Daredevil breaking the 4th wall and elaborating on his senses, comparing them to those of others in a classic book.

Hearing? Hell, no.

IW? It was blatantly stated there it was only his sense of smell which allowed him to detect Stark's and Richards' doppelgangers.

Originally posted by Ize19
Of course it's a double standard, it fits the definition to a t. The question isn't is it a double standard, the question is if it's justified.

Not my point. We see a street leveler dodging a bullet, we go "as expected." We see a street leveler outrunning a bullet, we start to think, "when did they become a speedster." It's not the same feat, and you know it.

I didn't post Delta's feats, he did. I was expecting to see feats comparable to other speedsters, to get a better idea of where Pre-DOS Superman fit in there, and I got a bunch of feats that were comparable to this team. The other feats helped, but that bunch confused me, so I responded. There is no impression Wolverine is capable of matching his feats, just to be clear.

And how fast is superhuman? I agree he's not a speedster, but back in the classic Quicksilver days, not only did mach 1 make you a speedster, 160 mph did! I'd say the bars gone up over the years, what with power inflation and all.

Wolverine doesn't only, or even primarily, fight street levelers though. He's generally too fast for the true street levelers, and the elite definitely aren't mach 1, but they're also not limited to real life human speed (today, the fastest puncher in the world punches at 43 mph). The third option is that they're not as fast, but they're fast enough to use skill/senses to compete.

Only if you go by feats, instead of character description. Reaction feats, absolutely. Combat/movement feats? Definitely Cap, but he's above street level too. I'm not aware of any for the other two.

Because I think it gives us some clarity. I'm asking for a general range of speed, what you think they can do, instead of what they can't.

It would be a true double standards if Daredevil would be considered supersonic, while Wolverine wouldn't. When comparing somebody like Superman [who is a true speedster] and Batman [who is a human], and saying that we take one as it is, while the other is just for show and doesn't have any mathematical implication, to say it's a 'double standard' implies it would be unjust - when its simply a matter of logic and common sense. Again, you're getting lost in the details but failing to address the main point - is it ok to brush off Batman [or any other street leveler] doing supersonic/near-lightspeed feats, while taking it as it is for actual established speedsters? If not, is your position that Batman is supersonic?

You just rephrased my Wonder Woman analogy, said essentially the same thing, and then said it's not what I said. Yes, when we see street levelers doing a supersonic feat then go 'when did they become speedsters?' and when we see Wonder Woman doing a supersonic feat we go 'that's a good feat'. Good ...job?

If your point wasn't to compare Wolverine's feats with Superman, but only some of Superman's, all of which you can change Wolverine with most high-end street levelers [Batman, Daredevil, Batgirl etc.] and obtain the exact same result, to show that Wolverine has superspeed then...congrats on proving that all of those street levelers have superspeed? Or are you going to say that only Wolverine matching some of those feats count, and other street levelers being capable of doing the same is PIS, going up against exactly the same thing you're arguing in this thread?

Classic Quicksilver is still a speedster, no matter how much the bar has risen over the years. Faster speedsters have appeared.

Wolverine 'too fast' for elite street levelers? Please, point me to the comic where he's a supersonic fighter that the street levelers have no hope of touching. Or do I have to go back to the question of are all street levelers supersonic in order to be able to fight him? Or is your position that Wolverine drastically holds back his speed against them?

You can't coward your way by putting the label of 'superhuman' on Wolverine, say that you'll take everything he does into account, while not applying the same standards to all the other street levelers that he consistently fights and looks in the same speed ballpark. Wolverine doesn't suddenly move into 'speedster'/Diana/Superman/Flash territory, just because of a label.

Street levels who can dodge bullets(not aim dodge), have supersonics reflexes or reaction. But this dont mean they can run at this speed.

Superman, WW and others HH have FTL+ speed in reflexes.

Val Armorr, too.

Cassandra Cain actually does have one or two Flash like sprinting feats (In that annual about Indian untouchables. Runs through all the guards, complete with long arsed speed trail)

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh you know that's just the writer crying over how he lost a debate online and deliberately nerfed Superman so others can even have a chance?

http://www.cbr.com/all-star-interview-dwayne-mcduffie/

That's a statement as well carver. Accept it!!!!

That doesn't have a thing to do with Wonder Woman and Superman... I can understand with he was doing a comparison between these two but he isn't. Can you please post an interview on his thoughts on WW.

Originally posted by carver9
That doesn't have a thing to do with Wonder Woman and Superman... I can understand with he was doing a comparison between these two but he isn't. Can you please post an interview on his thoughts on WW.

Is that simple enough for you or do I have to draw a chart?

Originally posted by abhilegend
We know for a fact that Wolverine has a better sense of hearing and smell at that time. Daredevil flat out said that in Infinity War when Logan detected Iron Man doppelganger and Matt couldn't.

But tell me again how Wolverine listening the gunshot first isn't hearing him the gunshot first.

As Stilt already pointed out, Daredevil's hearing has always been better than Wolverine's. And they're both shown reacting to the noise simultaneously, Wolverine just has a louder reaction.

And I asked for where Wolverine outspeeded Daredevil in a fight.

Still waiting on that.

Not at first, and seeing your reaction to this clear cut scene made me disinclined to indulge you again. I don't have scans right now, cause my computer's on the fritz, but in MCP 151(or 152) I believe, Daredevil blindsides Wolverine while he's distracted by Typhoid Mary, then Wolverine returns the kick, dodges his next kick, then gets behind him with ease, putting him in a full nelson to end the fight. From the moment Wolverine knew he was there, he outsped him the whole way.

Or that his senses are more acute than Daredevil.

But no it was all speed which Wolverine somehow always forgets when fighting Daredevil.

They don't have that many fights to choose from. The first other fight was Ennis garbage, the second he was under mind control, deliberately trying not to win. Plus, Daredevil is top tier street in speed and skill, with senses that can keep up with Spider-Man, even if his body can't always.

Daredevil being amazed at someone dodging bullets is the same as Wolverine being faster?

Matt has better bullet dodging feats than pretty much everyone including Wolverine.

Don't be facetious.

Right, which makes his amazement more impressive, not less. Funny how you'd twist it around.

Right, because Wolverine fans don't bring Logan and Hulk being rivals, do they?

And for you Wolverine fans, until Wolverine can beat everyone in melee there is no rest.

I had a good chuckle at Wolverine beating Superman in melee though.

It matters with Wolverine and Sabertooth, because it provides a lot of evidence, but we don't turn every Brick vs skilled meta into Hulk vs Wolverine.

Because I'm not the one who is desperate enough to bring such an inconclusive scene to prove himself.

You don't want to buy my interpretation? I don't give a shit.

I'm right and you're wrong. That's the reality here.

Lol, no just desperate enough to diss Matt's hearing. Neither do I, I'm indulging you because I believe in the golden rule, but it's getting a tad wearisome. No, you've confused smelling with hearing, but at least you're confident!

Absolutely not. You have to draw lines and triangles and measure Wolverine's position to draw a conclusion that he was moving faster than sound.

Guess what? Nobody cares about these kind of calculations least if me.

Move on, try to bring some more dodging feats and manipulate them into hypersonic speed feats for Wolverine.

Or you could use your eyes and common sense. Lol at Wolverine traveling a comparable distance to a lightning attack being a "dodging" feat.

Yes, he is absolutely moving just as fast as Orion. Because speed lines are a match.

/sarcasm.

So Orion has speed lines, it's proof of superspeed, Wolverine has them, it means nothing. Why is this familiar?

Of course, the writers and the artists are all physics professors and somehow Wolverine dodging lightning is faster than Batman dodging light. Prove that the writer had the speed of lightning measured up before writing the scene and somehow forgot that you create a sonic boom while moving faster than sound.

Even though light moves several times faster than lightning. It's a Wolverine feat so it must be better than everyone.

I already acknowledged that Batman's dodge is a better reaction feat, because I wasn't posting it as a reaction feat. This discussion would be easier if you actually read my posts. First, you provide proof that every feat that surpasses sound is accompanied by a sonic boom. Don't worry, I'll wait.

😂

Always trust a Wolverine fanboy to be arrogant enough to think he is winning while losing.

Get this, you failed to prove Wolverine shown faster than ANY street level character in a fight, you failed to show a single scene of Wolverine moving faster than speed of sound and you think you won here?

crylaugh

Consider this a parting gift.

That's how you prove someone able to move hypersonic.

No, I've shown he's faster than one of the fastest street levelers, showed a clear scene of Wolverine moving faster than sound, and congrats, you proved what has been accepted since page 4 of this thread. My, you must be proud.

Originally posted by Philosophia
It would be a true double standards if Daredevil would be considered supersonic, while Wolverine wouldn't. When comparing somebody like Superman [who is a true speedster] and Batman [who is a human], and saying that we take one as it is, while the other is just for show and doesn't have any mathematical implication, to say it's a 'double standard' implies it would be unjust - when its simply a matter of logic and common sense. Again, you're getting lost in the details but failing to address the main point - is it ok to brush off Batman [or any other street leveler] doing supersonic/near-lightspeed feats, while taking it as it is for actual established speedsters? If not, is your position that Batman is supersonic?

For the sake of not getting lost in the details, I'm going to pass by your skipping my second sentence. It's not ok to brush it off, so long as it's consistent. Pretending elite streets don't have at least the supersonic reflexes they'd need to survive their daily patrols is ridiculous. I'm unaware of any street with consistent supersonic attack speeds.

You just rephrased my Wonder Woman analogy, said essentially the same thing, and then said it's not what I said. Yes, when we see street levelers doing a supersonic feat then go 'when did they become speedsters?' and when we see Wonder Woman doing a supersonic feat we go 'that's a good feat'. Good ...job?

One is a reflex feat, that we'd expect from any street leveler, the other is a movement feat, that we wouldn't expect from classic Quicksilver. It wasn't a fair comparison.

If your point wasn't to compare Wolverine's feats with Superman, but only some of Superman's, all of which you can change Wolverine with most high-end street levelers [Batman, Daredevil, Batgirl etc.] and obtain the exact same result, to show that Wolverine has superspeed then...congrats on proving that all of those street levelers have superspeed? Or are you going to say that only Wolverine matching some of those feats count, and other street levelers being capable of doing the same is PIS, going up against exactly the same thing you're arguing in this thread?

Again, I didn't set the standard, I matched it. And the point was to find out how fast Delta thought they were. It depends how fast those feats are seen as being, and how consistent they are with them. If it's a consistent portrayal, by definition it's not PIS.

Classic Quicksilver is still a speedster, no matter how much the bar has risen over the years. Faster speedsters have appeared.

And what's seen as the ceiling of non-speedster superspeed has risen too, it's just portrayed the same way.

Wolverine 'too fast' for elite street levelers? Please, point me to the comic where he's a supersonic fighter that the street levelers have no hope of touching. Or do I have to go back to the question of are all street levelers supersonic in order to be able to fight him? Or is your position that Wolverine drastically holds back his speed against them?

You can't coward your way by putting the label of 'superhuman' on Wolverine, say that you'll take everything he does into account, while not applying the same standards to all the other street levelers that he consistently fights and looks in the same speed ballpark. Wolverine doesn't suddenly move into 'speedster'/Diana/Superman/Flash territory, just because of a label.

Like I said, the elite streets all are portrayed with supersonic reflexes, and he's still generally faster than them.

Lol, like labeling Wolverine supersonic puts him in that class, you know it's two very different things.

By the way, I would still appreciate the range of speed you see the sub-speedster superhuman speed class at.

Originally posted by Ize19
[B]As Stilt already pointed out, Daredevil's hearing has always been better than Wolverine's. And they're both shown reacting to the noise simultaneously, Wolverine just has a louder reaction.

Except when it isn't. And Wolverine is the first one to hear that sound and rush while Daredevil lags behind.

Not at first, and seeing your reaction to this clear cut scene made me disinclined to indulge you again. I don't have scans right now, cause my computer's on the fritz, but in MCP 151(or 152) I believe, Daredevil blindsides Wolverine while he's distracted by Typhoid Mary, then Wolverine returns the kick, dodges his next kick, then gets behind him with ease, putting him in a full nelson to end the fight. From the moment Wolverine knew he was there, he outsped him the whole way.

You mean this?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/3092579-marvelcomicspresents151hm4.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/3092580-marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpg

That's as indicative of being faster as this.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/41984/837859-dd73nf.jpg

Oh right, it doesn't matters when Daredevil looked better than Wolverine.

They don't have that many fights to choose from. The first other fight was Ennis garbage, the second he was under mind control, deliberately trying not to win. Plus, Daredevil is top tier street in speed and skill, with senses that can keep up with Spider-Man, even if his body can't always.

Yeah, I always get the kick out of Wolverine trying to lose their Daredevil with a horde of ninjas. That never gets old.

Is Daredevil supersonic as well?

Right, which makes his amazement more impressive, not less. Funny how you'd twist it around.

No it only means that Daredevil wasn't written well. Isn't that the excuse for Wolverine losing to Daredevil under Ennis?

It matters with Wolverine and Sabertooth, because it provides a lot of evidence, but we don't turn every Brick vs skilled meta into Hulk vs Wolverine.

You don't? Even in this very thread there are like a dozen instances of posters bringing up Wolverine vs Hulk.

It only works for Wolverine, eh?

Lol, no just desperate enough to diss Matt's hearing. Neither do I, I'm indulging you because I believe in the golden rule, but it's getting a tad wearisome. No, you've confused smelling with hearing, but at least you're confident!

Hearing as well. But you're welcome to prove that Matt had better hearing than Logan at that point.

Or you could use your eyes and common sense. Lol at Wolverine traveling a comparable distance to a lightning attack being a "dodging" feat.

And here we go with comparable distance. By that token wouldn't Wolverine be near lightning speed?

Is Wolverine near lightning speed now?

So Orion has speed lines, it's proof of superspeed, Wolverine has them, it means nothing. Why is this familiar?

Because when Batman dodges light it means he is human. But when Wolverine dodges lightning he is supersonic.

Why is this familiar?

I already acknowledged that Batman's dodge is a better reaction feat, because I wasn't posting it as a reaction feat. This discussion would be easier if you actually read my posts. First, you provide proof that every feat that surpasses sound is accompanied by a sonic boom. Don't worry, I'll wait.

When I will try to use it as a hypersonic feat I will.

You're just trying to win my fight for me here. Writers don't use sonic booms until they are intending characters to move hypersonic.

The opposite isn't true.

No, I've shown he's faster than one of the fastest street levelers

Only in your mind. What we see here Wolverine reacting earlier than Daredevil.

And its lesser than Cap's speed feat where Daredevil could barely see him move.

, showed a clear scene of Wolverine moving faster than sound

That's not a clear scene by any argument.

, and congrats, you proved what has been accepted since page 4 of this thread. My, you must be proud.

Still waiting for those supersonic scans BTW.

Originally posted by Ize19
For the sake of not getting lost in the details, I'm going to pass by your skipping my second sentence. It's not ok to brush it off, so long as it's consistent. Pretending elite streets don't have at least the supersonic reflexes they'd need to survive their daily patrols is ridiculous. I'm unaware of any street with consistent supersonic attack speeds.

One is a reflex feat, that we'd expect from any street leveler, the other is a movement feat, that we wouldn't expect from classic Quicksilver. It wasn't a fair comparison.

Again, I didn't set the standard, I matched it. And the point was to find out how fast Delta thought they were. It depends how fast those feats are seen as being, and how consistent they are with them. If it's a consistent portrayal, by definition it's not PIS.

And what's seen as the ceiling of non-speedster superspeed has risen too, it's just portrayed the same way.

Like I said, the elite streets all are portrayed with supersonic reflexes, and he's still generally faster than them.

Lol, like labeling Wolverine supersonic puts him in that class, you know it's two very different things.

By the way, I would still appreciate the range of speed you see the sub-speedster superhuman speed class at.

I have a feeling you don't know how reflexes work.

If you're implying that a street leveler physically moves at supersonic speed as a reflex to a bullet, you must understand that this directly means that they're physically capable of moving their body at supersonic speeds in any other situation. The 'reflex' part involves increased reaction time due to the involuntary/automatic movements [muscle memory etc.] not the actual physical movement - there isn't a magical force making your body move faster. Your hand/feet speed isn't any faster than you're capable of normally - it's just that the moment you start moving them is sooner.

How were you setting the standard, when you were the one trying to match the feats? I still don't follow the point you were trying to prove, that Wolverine can match some of his feats, so that means that he has super speed, even though those same speeds can be, like I said, matched by other street levelers? If you feel like dropping this part and continue with Delta, feel free to do so, because it's irrelevant for our part, btw.

The 'speed' range I put them in? As in, hard numbers? Cap being capable of running 50-60mph seems about right, according to his own words:
http://i.imgur.com/soLu6KA.jpg

According to feats, though, he is capable of running faster than the speed of sound::
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103165/2404174-cap_blokcing_bullets_after_they_ve_been_fired1.jpg

That's greater than 760+mph/1225+km/h.
In short, Cap would be able to run a kilometer in less than 3 seconds.
That's legitimate speedster level. In fact, I can show you a speedster in DC right now who is under that speed, yet he is still a speedster.

If that doesn't sound absurd for street levelers, I don't know what to tell you.

Ok, Abhi, let's count the mistakes:

1) The only time Wolverine's had better hearing than Daredevil is when Daredevil could see.

2) The reason Wolverine reacts faster, is the same reason Daredevil lags behind. Because Wolverine is faster.

3) A scan from a comic written with the intention of humiliating the superheroes within it is not a valid counter to a scan from a legitimate comic.

4) Bringing the ninjas wasn't Wolverine's decision

5) Dismissing the part of the comic that established Wolverine was fighting the brainwashing, as well as Wolverine's on panel statement.

6) Comparing Ennis' agenda with the opinion of Ann Nocenti, the writer who took the reigns from Frank Miller as the writer of Daredevil's title.

7) Ignoring that I acknowledged we bring up Hulk vs Wolverine in Wolverine threads, as it's actually relevant in those threads.

8) Forgetting he asked for a single scan, which includes feats that are normally treated as outliers

9) Forgetting I never dismissed Batman, simply pointed out that even those who do can't treat Wolverine the same way, at least not consistently

10) Completely missing the point I was making about how not every supersonic feat is accompanied by a sonic boom

11) Being unable to see that in both CA's and Wolverine's feats, DD was left in the dust.

Plus a couple of repeats that I skipped. Please Abhi, you have to try much harder.

Originally posted by Philosophia
I have a feeling you don't know how reflexes work.

If you're implying that a street leveler physically moves at supersonic speed as a reflex to a bullet, you must understand that this directly means that they're physically capable of moving their body at supersonic speeds in any other situation. The 'reflex' part involves increased reaction time due to the involuntary/automatic movements [muscle memory etc.] not the actual physical movement - there isn't a magical force making your body move faster. Your hand/feet speed isn't any faster than you're capable of normally - it's just that the moment you start moving them is sooner.

Not what I meant by reflex. I agree, for the extremely short distances required. All I meant is that while they aren't capable of running at supersonic speed, they can bat away/ jerk their heads clear/whatever feats they regularly accomplish at such speeds.

The 'speed' range I put them in? As in, hard numbers? Cap being capable of running 50-60mph seems about right, according to his own words:
http://i.imgur.com/soLu6KA.jpg

According to feats, though, he is capable of running faster than the speed of sound::
https://static.comicvine.com/upload...been_fired1.jpg

That's greater than 760+mph/1225+km/h.
In short, Cap would be able to run a kilometer in less than 3 seconds.
That's legitimate speedster level. In fact, I can show you a speedster in DC right now who is under that speed, yet he is still a speedster.

If that doesn't sound absurd for street levelers, I don't know what to tell you.

Those feats illustrate the difference, in comics, between traveling speed, and short burst speed. That being said, yes, it's a very high feat, not standard Cap.

Lol, I'm sorry, when people think speedster, what quote comes to mind? "Faster than a speeding bullet..." If a speedster failing to at least meet that standard makes sense to you, I have to tell you it seems far more absurd than subspeedster superhumans briefly meeting it does to me.

Originally posted by Ize19
Not what I meant by reflex. I agree, for the extremely short distances required. All I meant is that while they aren't capable of running at supersonic speed, they can bat away/ jerk their heads clear/whatever feats they regularly accomplish at such speeds.

Those feats illustrate the difference, in comics, between traveling speed, and short burst speed. That being said, yes, it's a very high feat, not standard Cap.

Lol, I'm sorry, when people think speedster, what quote comes to mind? "Faster than a speeding bullet..." If a speedster failing to at least meet that standard makes sense to you, I have to tell you it seems far more absurd than subspeedster superhumans briefly meeting it does to me.

Having your top speed night-instantly in 1/10s of a second [760 mph] and then suddenly becoming ridiculously slower [50-60 mph] is absurd. Are you seriously arguing that Cap can run at Mach 1 for less than a fraction of a second, and anything other than that he reverts to 50/60 mph? C'mon, man, let's not start pulling random shit out of our asses to fit a narrative that, by this point, you must realize doesn't work. You do realize that if Cap could sustain his top speed for even 4 seconds, he would be able to travel a mile in that short span of time, completely contradicting his actual quote of "over a minute" by orders of magnitude?

If the expression 'faster than a speeding bullet' defines a speedster, and you take Cap's feat at face value, then Cap is a speedster. At the same time, you don't want to have Cap be a speedster, so you insert a non-logical 'short burst' that will not hold under any kind of scrutinity [and I really urge you not to go that path].

Originally posted by Philosophia
But they are capable of running at supersonic speeds since, as Cap's speed shows, he runs at supersonic speeds to outrace the bullet. I could show a similar feat for Batgirl. And if they can achieve the speed in such a short distance/time, consequently they'd be able to do it for a longer distance/time [logically even faster; how much depends on their stamina]. Speed is built up over distance, and top speed is generally shown after a few tens of meters [see literally every sprint competition]. Even if that is their top speed, can you make any kind of logical argument why they can't sustain that speed for more than a fraction of a second?

Right, sorry for the confusion. This is because you're discussing the street levelers and the SS SHs as one category, and I'm splitting them into two. My statement was just about street levelers. I'd argue it's comic logic, but I can be convinced otherwise.

Having your top speed night-instantly in 1/10s of a second [760 mph] and then suddenly becoming ridiculously slower [50-60 mph] is absurd. Are you seriously arguing that Cap can run at Mach 1 for less than a fraction of a second, and anything other than that he reverts to 50/60 mph? C'mon, man, let's not start pulling random shit out of our asses to fit a narrative that, by this point, you must realize doesn't work. You do realize that if Cap could sustain his top speed for even 4 seconds, he would be able to travel a mile in that short span of time, completely contradicting his actual quote of "over a minute" by orders of magnitude?

I have to admit, this is a convincing argument. That being said, characters like Batgirl, Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine (lower end Captain America, higher end Spider-Man) are sometimes depicted as this fast, whereas Green Arrow, Daredevil, Punisher, the elite streets, might dodge that fast, they'd never be shown running/attacking at such speeds.

So I do feel such feats still have a place, as a dividing line, I'm just unsure of how fast to call the characters who occasionally achieve them.

If the expression 'faster than a speeding bullet' defines a speedster, and you take Cap's feat at face value, then Cap is a speedster. At the same time, you don't want to have Cap be a speedster, so you insert a non-logical 'short burst' that will not hold under any kind of scrutinity [and I really urge you not to go that path].

Only if he's consistently capable of such speed, which he's not. I'm willing not to, just not to toss the feat and its like out completely.

Originally posted by Ize19
Right, sorry for the confusion. This is because you're discussing the street levelers and the SS SHs as one category, and I'm splitting them into two. My statement was just about street levelers. I'd argue it's comic logic, but I can be convinced otherwise.

I have to admit, this is a convincing argument. That being said, characters like Batgirl, Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine (lower end Captain America, higher end Spider-Man) are sometimes depicted as this fast, whereas Green Arrow, Daredevil, Punisher, the elite streets, might dodge that fast, they'd never be shown running/attacking at such speeds.

So I do feel such feats still have a place, as a dividing line, I'm just unsure of how fast to call the characters who occasionally achieve them.

Only if he's consistently capable of such speed, which he's not. I'm willing not to, just not to toss the feat and its like out completely.

I'm arguing it's comic book logic, too. As in, street levelers will have a shitload of supersonic feats, but I don't take them into account, because it's absurd to have them at that speed level. And the feats are [surprisingly or not] not one-offs - Batgirl has like half a dozen casual bullet-time feats in her original series alone. Cap has done this many times throughout his history, Batman too, Daredevil too, Elektra too etc. Not many of them are straight-out outrunning bullets, but the speed is still within that range, one that is implausible.

For what it's worth, to go back a few pages to 'how do I judge them?' - if a street leveler has consistent bullet timing feats [dodging after fired, outrunning etc.], and another one doesn't, I'd be hard pressed to be convinced that the one who doesn't isn't slower [unless he's portrayed as fast as other characters who have, even though he doesn't]. And generally, writers portray them that way, too. Daredevil/Wolverine/Elektra etc. will always be faster than Punisher and the like. On the other hand, if a street leveler comes up against somebody who has superspeed in his powerset, I always put them below, and I'm sure comics would always portray them as below, too [Superior Spider-Man vs that fast dude comes to mind, Quicksilver vs Mr. X etc.] Arguing street levelers tagging them comes down to how high they're portrayed - if a speedster is low-level, I have no problem arguing that high-end street at least get a lick in.

Anyway, I feel we've said all there is to be said, so there's no point in continuing. Breath of fresh air to have a civilized discussion 👆

Originally posted by Philosophia
I'm arguing it's comic book logic, too. As in, street levelers will have a shitload of supersonic feats, but I don't take them into account, because it's absurd to have them at that speed level. And the feats are [surprisingly or not] not one-offs - Batgirl has like half a dozen casual bullet-time feats in her original series alone. Cap has done this many times throughout his history, Batman too, Daredevil too, Elektra too etc. Not many of them are straight-out outrunning bullets, but the speed is still within that range, one that is implausible.

For what it's worth, to go back a few pages to 'how do I judge them?' - if a street leveler has consistent bullet timing feats [dodging after fired, outrunning etc.], and another one doesn't, I'd be hard pressed to be convinced that the one who doesn't isn't slower [unless he's portrayed as fast as other characters who have, even though he doesn't]. And generally, writers portray them that way, too. Daredevil/Wolverine/Elektra etc. will always be faster than Punisher and the like. On the other hand, if a street leveler comes up against somebody who has superspeed in his powerset, I always put them below, and I'm sure comics would always portray them as below, too [Superior Spider-Man vs that fast dude comes to mind, Quicksilver vs Mr. X etc.] Arguing street levelers tagging them comes down to how high they're portrayed - if a speedster is low-level, I have no problem arguing that high-end street at least get a lick in.

Anyway, I feel we've said all there is to be said, so there's no point in continuing. Breath of fresh air to have a civilized discussion thumb up

That's a completely reasonable position to take. Thanks for the debate, I enjoyed it too. 🙂

I'm arguing it's comic book logic, too. As in, street levelers will have a shitload of supersonic feats, but I don't take them into account, because it's absurd to have them at that speed level. And the feats are [surprisingly or not] not one-offs - Batgirl has like half a dozen casual bullet-time feats in her original series alone. Cap has done this many times throughout his history, Batman too, Daredevil too, Elektra too etc. Not many of them are straight-out outrunning bullets, but the speed is still within that range, one that is implausible.

For what it's worth, to go back a few pages to 'how do I judge them?' - if a street leveler has consistent bullet timing feats [dodging after fired, outrunning etc.], and another one doesn't, I'd be hard pressed to be convinced that the one who doesn't isn't slower [unless he's portrayed as fast as other characters who have, even though he doesn't]. And generally, writers portray them that way, too. Daredevil/Wolverine/Elektra etc. will always be faster than Punisher and the like. On the other hand, if a street leveler comes up against somebody who has superspeed in his powerset, I always put them below, and I'm sure comics would always portray them as below, too [Superior Spider-Man vs that fast dude comes to mind, Quicksilver vs Mr. X etc.] Arguing street levelers tagging them comes down to how high they're portrayed - if a speedster is low-level, I have no problem arguing that high-end street at least get a lick in.

Anyway, I feel we've said all there is to be said, so there's no point in continuing. Breath of fresh air to have a civilized discussion

Great points all around and a good example with Mr. X, who easily tooled Taskmaster and Wolverine (temporary). And Quicksilver (someone slower than Orion) owned X.

Still Orion.

such a great thread.... orion goes down. 👆

Good bump.

The forum is so much better with you contributing again, champ.

😂

👆