Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So let's head back to our numbers.Bullets from 9mm guns travel at 1700mph.
They do not make guns explode.
So let's say the bullet thrown by Orion was travelling at 2000mph.
His fingers are travelling at 2000mph.
His hands are less than this. His arms, less still.
But, how much less? Is Nolan's hand that much slower than his fingers? I would hazard no.
So Orion's punches are now travelling at what, 1900mph? 1800? Still pretty damn fast.
Pretty damn fast, but not outside the range of things Spider-man or Wolverine have reacted to.
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
To, Ize19, why are you so vehement in your stance when you are so ignorant of Orion?
I'm not, in fact, at one point I was willing to concede. I'm not ignorant on Wolverine, Sabertooth, or Spider-man, and I'm not willing to let them be dismissed unfairly. Far too often over the years, I've seen wins be handed to people who had no business getting them, just because posters were besotted with their strength.
If Orion is actually Superman level speed in a straight up fight, I've made my opinion clear: he wins. However, I've seen in Thor threads and Spider-man threads I've been a part of in the past, people love to post scans, claim they're showing these amazing feats, and it's so often exaggerated it's crazy.
All I'm asking for is definitive proof Orion really is the physical equal of Superman, even when unaided by equipment or forces he doesn't have in this thread. If he is, he wins. If he's only equal in strength and durability, and mildly faster than Spider-man, the trio takes it.
Originally posted by Ize19
Pretty damn fast, but not outside the range of things Spider-man or Wolverine have reacted to.
And that's me being conservative.
But that kinda speed (at least), backed up by his strength?
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
To, Ize19, why are you so vehement in your stance when you are so ignorant of Orion?
Tbh, seeing your position on anything always makes me question myself.
"Mighty" Orion... 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Ize19
Where did it say he was incapable of accessing the Astro-force in the Delta Patrol scan? I didn't see that stated anywhere. Anyway, if he couldn't access it against Darkseid, explain these scenes:
It was later on in the series. He had his own "Unworthy" moment when he started using the Anti-Life Equation. Even before that, things he did showed he was on the path when his Mother Box wouldn't speak to.him. He was using Apokolips equipment because his own gear wasn't working And Orion was literally in a coma in the Delta Patrol feat.
Yeah, the fight was agreed on just being hand-to-hand. Orion didn't use the Astro-Force until Darkseid broke the agreement and used the Omega Beams(at the end of the fight). There isn't anything but a circular argument that he's using the Astro-Force to move at super speed.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
"Mighty" Orion... 😖hifty:
vin
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And that's me being conservative.But that kinda speed (at least), backed up by his strength?
I haven't done the calculations myself, so I don't know how fast that is. I'm willing to admit it's pretty fast, but it also seems like your calc is slightly off. If instead of throwing the bullet, he'd shot one with his own gun right into the barrel, wouldn't the same thing happen? Not in real life, just comics. For instance, I'm thinking of this feat:
There the gun is exploded despite the bullet not going any faster than when it was initially fired. So does it really need to exceed the speed of the bullet leaving the gun, if the bullet's going the other direction?
Anyway, that's just me asking a question, even giving the feat as much weight as you are, I'd agree it'd give him the win one-on-one versus any of the team, but all together? If that's the limit of his grounded speed, I'd still give it to them.
Originally posted by Delta1938
It was later on in the series. He had his own "Unworthy" moment when he started using the Anti-Life Equation. Even before that, things he did showed he was on the path when his Mother Box wouldn't speak to.him. He was using Apokolips equipment because his own gear wasn't working And Orion was literally in a coma in the Delta Patrol feat.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, you mentioned that before, pretty badass. How fast was that beast the final patrolman was riding?
Yeah, the fight was agreed on just being hand-to-hand. Orion didn't use the Astro-Force until Darkseid broke the agreement and used the Omega Beams(at the end of the fight). There isn't anything but a circular argument that he's using the Astro-Force to move at super speed. [/B]
Ok, but you still didn't explain why he was clearly flying in those scans I reposted. Just because it's hand to hand, doesn't mean they're limited to ground combat, right? So it wouldn't be breaking the rules to have equipment that enables flight.
And yes, I know this is a different argument, sorry. I was a bit mixed up about what Astro force was before. I just want to fully understand what happened, and so far, your descriptions haven't quite seemed to match up to what I'm seeing in this scene.
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...Darksaint post doesn't make any sense. Orion who is Superman level in strength threw the bullet. The force of his throw from his strength alone should turn a gun into powder. That's not a speed showing.
That's because you possess one too many chromosomes.
Spoiler:
That doesn't make you an X-man, btw.
Go out and get some tinfoil. Scrunch it up into a ball.
Now throw it, as hard as your retard-Lenny/John Coffey strength allows. Did you hand move quickly....or slowly?
Originally posted by Ize19
I haven't done the calculations myself, so I don't know how fast that is. I'm willing to admit it's pretty fast, but it also seems like your calc is slightly off. If instead of throwing the bullet, he'd shot one with his own gun right into the barrel, wouldn't the same thing happen? Not in real life, just comics. For instance, I'm thinking of this feat:There the gun is exploded despite the bullet not going any faster than when it was initially fired. So does it really need to exceed the speed of the bullet leaving the gun, if the bullet's going the other direction?
Anyway, that's just me asking a question, even giving the feat as much weight as you are, I'd agree it'd give him the win one-on-one versus any of the team, but all together? If that's the limit of his grounded speed, I'd still give it to them.
That scan has him plugging the barrel with an unbreakable mass, which is different from 'reverse-firing', as it were.
Like exploding a toothpaste tube by squeezing it, vs throwing toothpaste into a tube, exploding it.
Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, you mentioned that before, pretty badass. How fast was that beast the final patrolman was riding?Ok, but you still didn't explain why he was clearly flying in those scans I reposted. Just because it's hand to hand, doesn't mean they're limited to ground combat, right? So it wouldn't be breaking the rules to have equipment that enables flight.
And yes, I know this is a different argument, sorry. I was a bit mixed up about what Astro force was before. I just want to fully understand what happened, and so far, your descriptions haven't quite seemed to match up to what I'm seeing in this scene.
Don't know how fast the beast was.
I don't see flight at all but acrobatic fighting. But here's the thing. Are you trying to argue them fighting at super speed was all because of some supposed flight equipment? Even if they are using equipment to fly, they're fighting at super speed on the ground too. I'm really not sure where you're going with this unless you think his speed is only due to some flight equipment. In the bullet catching scan, note that between what we see and the narration (a girl witnessing it) didn't even see him move. His back was to the shooter when the shot happened. So are you arguing he did that with flight equipment?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆 so far, am enjoying the debate with you. As it is WITH you, not AGAINST. Kudos to you.That scan has him plugging the barrel with an unbreakable mass, which is different from 'reverse-firing', as it were.
Like exploding a toothpaste tube by squeezing it, vs throwing toothpaste into a tube, exploding it.
Thanks man, likewise. I always feel debates should be about different sides sharing their perspective until they can see the truth, lol, that sounds corny I know, but it's what I strive for.
Ok, you're right, not the best example. Although, given the difference between a bullet and a bit of toothpaste, and a gun and a tube of toothpaste, perhaps yours wasn't the best choice of metaphors either, eh 😄? Either way, it's still a great feat, and either way, I still don't think it puts him over the team.
I would appreciate your perspective on the Darkseid fight. Am I as seeing what I want, or is he really flying there? It certainly looks that way to me, but maybe I'm crazy.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Don't know how fast the beast was.I don't see flight at all but acrobatic fighting. But here's the thing. Are you trying to argue them fighting at super speed was all because of some supposed flight equipment? Even if they are using equipment to fly, they're fighting at super speed on the ground too. I'm really not sure where you're going with this unless you think his speed is only due to some flight equipment. In the bullet catching scan, note that between what we see and the narration (a girl witnessing it) didn't even see him move. His back was to the shooter when the shot happened. So are you arguing he did that with flight equipment?
I'm trying to say there's a difference between super speed, and Flash/Superman level super speed. The scan against the Delta Force certainly looked impressive, but we've seen Wolverine, Spider-man, and Sabertooth look just as impressive while blitzing others (granted not while in a coma... don't know how that changes the feat, but it's certainly adds an element of awesome to it).
Same with the bullet catch feat, Spider-man's done the same, also while his back was turned. Even if he is a little faster than them, most of his feats don't seem leagues beyond them, except for their "dbz style fight," and they don't seem to really rev up the speed until they start flying. If that's so, then I don't see how it applies in this grounded fight he's having. Especially if he's using a device to fly, which I believe he generally needs, then you can't use that fight to put him = with Superman's going full out combat speed.
Originally posted by Ize19
Thanks man, likewise. I always feel debates should be about different sides sharing their perspective until they can see the truth, lol, that sounds corny I know, but it's what I strive for.Ok, you're right, not the best example. Although, given the difference between a bullet and a bit of toothpaste, and a gun and a tube of toothpaste, perhaps yours wasn't the best choice of metaphors either, eh 😄? Either way, it's still a great feat, and either way, I still don't think it puts him over the team.
I would appreciate your perspective on the Darkseid fight. Am I as seeing what I want, or is he really flying there? It certainly looks that way to me, but maybe I'm crazy.
No problem!
As for that fight....no idea, lol. Having never read the issue, it seems like he's not flying, but jumping all over the place - but then, I'm not as familiar with Simonson's art style (personally, I dislike it).
Originally posted by Ize19
I'm trying to say there's a difference between super speed, and Flash/Superman level super speed. The scan against the Delta Force certainly looked impressive, but we've seen Wolverine, Spider-man, and Sabertooth look just as impressive while blitzing others (granted not while in a coma... don't know how that changes the feat, but it's certainly adds an element of awesome to it).Same with the bullet catch feat, Spider-man's done the same, also while his back was turned. Even if he is a little faster than them, most of his feats don't seem leagues beyond them, except for their "dbz style fight," and they don't seem to really rev up the speed until they start flying. If that's so, then I don't see how it applies in this grounded fight he's having. Especially if he's using a device to fly, which I believe he generally needs, then you can't use that fight to put him = with Superman's going full out combat speed.
I didn't argue he was Flash/Superman fast. He doesn't have to be. The delta patrol scans also misses the prior page where he seemed to take a child in the area away too fast to be seen. Being in a coma would at the least make his movements more awkward and clumsy, and at least a bit slower, if we go by people doing "extreme sleep walking." Which is a thing(seen a documentary or two on it). Don't exactly know what the writer intended, but yeah.
Spider-Man has had his back turned, been shot at, and turned around, caught the bullet, and gone back into place so fast it looked like he never moved? Your argument they're flying is based entirely on the assumption that they're flying. There was no mention of them having equipment, so you're basically assuming I have to prove a negative. You also assumed previously it was Orion using Astro-Force. Perhaps you just want to discount this feat? The only thing that really matters is he's fighting Darkseid, and doing fine in speed. One of Darkseid's few speed feats is moving too fast to be seen(as specified) by Byrne era Superman(at the risk of turning this into Superman vs Marvel, while that era of Superman is not as fast now, he was quite fast, I'd think a lot faster than the Marvel guys here).
Just want to clear up something:
Orion always wears astro bracelets when he's not using the harness. That'a why he was able to create that shield (after Darkseid fought dirty)
But that doesn't give him the ability to fly, nor imply intent to break the rules himself (Also, Simonson established Orion can summon the harness at any time, even if it's shattered into dust. So in the end, it's his honor that keeps him from using it in the dual, and discarding it was more that it got in the way of h2h combat while bracelets did not..)
this is very different from a fight against, say thor. orion has a powerset much better suited to taking out this team. he is fast enough to bfr one (not permanently) and pick them off one at a time that way if he chooses. we've logan's claws be fairly ineffective against thor, and orion's skin would be at least as durable, likely a fair bit MORE durable. he is also an extremely skilled fighter. maybe not as good as logan, depending on which showings you go by, but very highly skilled--moreso than thor in straight h2h. i think the triom in straight h2h, would give thor a....very difficult time. but orion is more skilled on the ground, FAR faster, and is more durable (though damage soak would likely go to thor imo). overall, orion is just too much for these guys.
