Originally posted by leonidasTo add to this, Orion catches bullets from behind while blindfolded - he could just grab Wolverine's arms and use him as a bat to beat the others.
this is very different from a fight against, say thor. orion has a powerset much better suited to taking out this team. he is fast enough to bfr one (not permanently) and pick them off one at a time that way if he chooses. we've logan's claws be fairly ineffective against thor, and orion's skin would be at least as durable, likely a fair bit MORE durable. he is also an extremely skilled fighter. maybe not as good as logan, depending on which showings you go by, but very highly skilled--moreso than thor in straight h2h. i think the triom in straight h2h, would give thor a....very difficult time. but orion is more skilled on the ground, FAR faster, and is more durable (though damage soak would likely go to thor imo). overall, orion is just too much for these guys.
Originally posted by leonidas
this is very different from a fight against, say thor. orion has a powerset much better suited to taking out this team. he is fast enough to bfr one (not permanently) and pick them off one at a time that way if he chooses. we've logan's claws be fairly ineffective against thor, and orion's skin would be at least as durable, likely a fair bit MORE durable. he is also an extremely skilled fighter. maybe not as good as logan, depending on which showings you go by, but very highly skilled--moreso than thor in straight h2h. i think the triom in straight h2h, would give thor a....very difficult time. but orion is more skilled on the ground, FAR faster, and is more durable (though damage soak would likely go to thor imo). overall, orion is just too much for these guys.
On the skill thing, on paper, Orion should be far more skilled than all of them combined. Comics usually don't work out that way with characters like him, though.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I didn't argue he was Flash/Superman fast. He doesn't have to be. The delta patrol scans also misses the prior page where he seemed to take a child in the area away too fast to be seen. Being in a coma would at the least make his movements more awkward and clumsy, and at least a bit slower, if we go by people doing "extreme sleep walking." Which is a thing(seen a documentary or two on it). Don't exactly know what the writer intended, but yeah.
Maybe not you, but I've seen it brought up in here. He at least needs to be fast to blitz all three of them before they can react, in order to take the easy victory most are giving him. Again, Wolverine and Spider-Man have had fights where they moved too fast to be seen for extended periods of time. Sometimes, other times being unconscious allows for a trained fighters natural instincts to take over, at least in fiction. It's why I'm having a difficult time quantifying how the coma affects the feat.
Spider-Man has had his back turned, been shot at, and turned around, caught the bullet, and gone back into place so fast it looked like he never moved? Your argument they're flying is based entirely on the assumption that they're flying. There was no mention of them having equipment, so you're basically assuming I have to prove a negative. You also assumed previously it was Orion using Astro-Force. Perhaps you just want to discount this feat? The only thing that really matters is he's fighting Darkseid, and doing fine in speed. One of Darkseid's few speed feats is moving too fast to be seen(as specified) by Byrne era Superman(at the risk of turning this into Superman vs Marvel, while that era of Superman is not as fast now, he was quite fast, I'd think a lot faster than the Marvel guys here).
That's not what the feat shows. He doesn't turn to catch the bullet, he catches it behind his head, then he turns, takes a couple of moments, the shooter threatens him with the whole clip, and he throws the bullet, exploding the gun. Spider-Man has been shot at from behind, not been aware of it until the bullets were about a foot away, then turned his entire body and caught one of the bullets in the remaining time. I assume moving that fast would be hard to see.
No, my argument that they are flying is based entirely on it appearing in the scans I read that they are flying. I'd never seen the scene before, and when I looked it up, I found some info that wasn't complete.
Right, which is why I mentioned that it seemed like they kicked the speed into high gear in those scans I posted. If they had been going full speed from the beginning, I wouldn't have an argument. But then maybe I don't. If I'm the only one that sees those scans and thinks they're flying, I'm willing to concede I'm reading them wrong.
Originally posted by Delta1938
On the skill thing, on paper, Orion should be far more skilled than all of them combined. Comics usually don't work out that way with characters like him, though.
Orion defeated Valkyrie in combat, while in a pacifistic state. And Valkyrie was said to be the greatest martial artist in the universe.
Originally posted by Ize19
Maybe not you, but I've seen it brought up in here. He at least needs to be fast to blitz all three of them before they can react, in order to take the easy victory most are giving him. Again, Wolverine and Spider-Man have had fights where they moved too fast to be seen for extended periods of time. Sometimes, other times being unconscious allows for a trained fighters natural instincts to take over, at least in fiction. It's why I'm having a difficult time quantifying how the coma affects the feat.
I don't see him needing to blitz them to win. He's more than fast enough to keep up with them, ect. Curious where you've seen it about being unconscious?
Originally posted by Ize19
That's not what the feat shows. He doesn't turn to catch the bullet, he catches it behind his head, then he turns, takes a couple of moments, the shooter threatens him with the whole clip, and he throws the bullet, exploding the gun. Spider-Man has been shot at from behind, not been aware of it until the bullets were about a foot away, then turned his entire body and caught one of the bullets in the remaining time. I assume moving that fast would be hard to see.
😆 That's what I get for posting groggy. But check the scans again, read the narration. He caught it so fast she thought he was shot at first. That would indicate she didn't even see the catching. I don't know the feat to compare, but we've got more than "I assume" to go on Orion moving too fast to be seen. Plus, Spider-Man has Spider-Sense(unless there was context disabling it or whatever?). Even if Spider-Man did the same, it's less impressive, unless Spider-Sense wasn't a factor.
Originally posted by Ize19
No, my argument that they are flying is based entirely on it appearing in the scans I read that they are flying. I'd never seen the scene before, and when I looked it up, I found some info that wasn't complete.
I don't see it as flying. Nobody else has said they seen it. Not doing "appeal to the majority," but it does seem you're the only one who thinks they're flying. What do you mean by "info that wasn't complete?" Maybe I can help.
Originally posted by Ize19
Right, which is why I mentioned that it seemed like they kicked the speed into high gear in those scans I posted. If they had been going full speed from the beginning, I wouldn't have an argument. But then maybe I don't. If I'm the only one that sees those scans and thinks they're flying, I'm willing to concede I'm reading them wrong.
There were moments they weren't moving as fast, but I don't see any narration or anything of ever increasing speed. Not that they couldn't be, but there's not really much shown beyond speed lines or no speed lines. Since we also see instances of them moving like that when on the ground in the fight, the only argument would be that this alleged equipment is giving them their speed. I showed you Orion actually using equipment to fly in the same series. It's not impossible they had some equipment, but I find it highly unlikely if they were fighting this fast because of gear that gives flight that the author didn't make any indication of them having to do this.
Originally posted by Zack M
Orion defeated Valkyrie in combat, while in a pacifistic state. And Valkyrie was said to be the greatest martial artist in the universe.
IIRC he started it in a pacifist state, and the whole point of it was hoping it'd give him back his warrior nature, and it did, and he started winning after it kicked in. But Highfather interrupted it before it was finished. It was a cool scene though, and there was some stuff to give her more than lip service.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't see him needing to blitz them to win. He's more than fast enough to keep up with them, ect. Curious where you've seen it about being unconscious?
Not to win, to win with ease. More than fast enough to keep up with all of them working together, them being an oppenent with limited pre-cog and two of the stealthiest fighters out there?
Actually, that unconscious thing seems to be mostly Japanese. In Hajime no Ippo, both Ippo and Takamura go from losing their fights to beating their opponents when they're knocked unconscious, but still on their feet. In History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Kenichi only manages to fight evenly with his rival Shou Kanou after being knocked unconscious, and all the moves his teachers beat into his body are no longer held back by his morals. There's even a real life example, Japanese Judoka Masahiko Kimura claimed his body once successfully threw his opponent in a sparring match, even after exhaustion had made him lose consciousness:
(The trope is known as Unconscious Objector)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Wrestling/MasahikoKimura
However, it doesn't seem to be a thing in Western comics, so it was just my outside reading coloring the way I saw that scene. My bad.
😆 That's what I get for posting groggy. But check the scans again, read the narration. He caught it so fast she thought he was shot at first. That would indicate she didn't even see the catching. I don't know the feat to compare, but we've got more than "I assume" to go on Orion moving too fast to be seen. Plus, Spider-Man has Spider-Sense(unless there was context disabling it or whatever?). Even if Spider-Man did the same, it's less impressive, unless Spider-Sense wasn't a factor.
She is a regular person, right? Not exactly a trained observer. And Spider-man didn't just put his hand behind his head, he actually twisted his whole body in time to make the catch, despite his Spider-sense not alerting him until it was less than a foot away from him. That's pretty damn fast, Spider-sense or no.
I don't see it as flying. Nobody else has said they seen it. Not doing "appeal to the majority," but it does seem you're the only one who thinks they're flying. What do you mean by "info that wasn't complete?" Maybe I can help.
When CDTM pointed out that his armor wasn't the harness I looked up what the harness did. It said it allowed him to use the Astro-force, and one of its uses was flying. Then I looked up if he could use the Astro-force without the Harness, and found some claims he could. This led to me jumping the gun and assuming that's what he was doing here, but as I continued to research, I realized that wasn't it.
There were moments they weren't moving as fast, but I don't see any narration or anything of ever increasing speed. Not that they couldn't be, but there's not really much shown beyond speed lines or no speed lines. Since we also see instances of them moving like that when on the ground in the fight, the only argument would be that this alleged equipment is giving them their speed. I showed you Orion actually using equipment to fly in the same series. It's not impossible they had some equipment, but I find it highly unlikely if they were fighting this fast because of gear that gives flight that the author didn't make any indication of them having to do this.
Well that'd be a trick, since the entire fight was unnarrated, eh? No, I get your point, it was just the scenes of them powering up, then unleashing their speed led me to believe that they were attaining new levels. Of course, going by this logic, when Orion was at his fastest, he was clearly running, as seen by the holes left by his footstomps, so it's clear I had the scene wrong, and I concede the feat.
Originally posted by Ize19
Not to win, to win with ease. More than fast enough to keep up with all of them working together, them being an oppenent with limited pre-cog and two of the stealthiest fighters out there?
Well, carter didn't specify anything on the battlefield, and going by what Pr and another mod or two have said, that would make a featureless battlefield(being "featureless" isn't specifically said, but Pr said it was what they are). The rules do state they they're half a kilometer facing each other.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html
Concerning the Battlefield Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.
Of course, it's carter's thread, so he can change it if he wants to protect Wolverine. 😆
But not sure if it'll help them. Orion did this while blind.
And what I said earlier about on paper of Orion is a far better fighter than them combined? I wasn't exaggerating. He's at least centuries old, and a "god of BATTLE."
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/WarGod
Originally posted by Ize19
Actually, that unconscious thing seems to be mostly Japanese. In Hajime no Ippo, both Ippo and Takamura go from losing their fights to beating their opponents when they're knocked unconscious, but still on their feet. In History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Kenichi only manages to fight evenly with his rival Shou Kanou after being knocked unconscious, and all the moves his teachers beat into his body are no longer held back by his morals. There's even a real life example, Japanese Judoka Masahiko Kimura claimed his body once successfully threw his opponent in a sparring match, even after exhaustion had made him lose consciousness:(The trope is known as Unconscious Objector)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Wrestling/MasahikoKimuraHowever, it doesn't seem to be a thing in Western comics, so it was just my outside reading coloring the way I saw that scene. My bad.
Ah, thanks.
Originally posted by Ize19
She is a regular person, right? Not exactly a trained observer. And Spider-man didn't just put his hand behind his head, he actually twisted his whole body in time to make the catch, despite his Spider-sense not alerting him until it was less than a foot away from him. That's pretty damn fast, Spider-sense or no.
Yes, but if he did it faster than she could see, it'd still be faster than she could see. And there's other examples, as well, like what I posted above(that happens before the bullet catching scene, but same encounter).
Originally posted by Ize19
When CDTM pointed out that his armor wasn't the harness I looked up what the harness did. It said it allowed him to use the Astro-force, and one of its uses was flying. Then I looked up if he could use the Astro-force without the Harness, and found some claims he could. This led to me jumping the gun and assuming that's what he was doing here, but as I continued to research, I realized that wasn't it.
Oh, ok. I don't know if it's been explained how the Astro-Harness allows him to fly. He can use his gauntlets to access the Astro-Force without the Harness, but I have never seen him use the Astro-Force to fly without the Astro-Harness. Not that it's impossible, I still have yet to read a couple runs Orion was in, but he didn't show it in the ORION series where the Darkseid fight is from. In fact, the scene I showed you with him on flying with those discs under his feet going after Desaad is him with the Astro-Gauntlets but before he couldn't access it.
Originally posted by Ize19
Well that'd be a trick, since the entire fight was unnarrated, eh? No, I get your point, it was just the scenes of them powering up, then unleashing their speed led me to believe that they were attaining new levels. Of course, going by this logic, when Orion was at his fastest, he was clearly running, as seen by the holes left by his footstomps, so it's clear I had the scene wrong, and I concede the feat.
No trick intended, sorry if it came off like that. I don't see anything about "reving up" if you mean going at higher and higher levels of speed as the fight goes on. All I see are either they're moving fast as shown by speed lines, or not. Could they be varying their speed when moving at super speed? Of course. Is there anything indicating this? Well I don't see anything.
Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "what would be the results once Sabertooth an claw Orion" because he will get tagged; a lot. Spider-Man webbing to the eyes would leave an opening for a head stab. How would Orion handle this?
*Sees scan of Orion catching bullet then throwing it with pinpoint accuracy., is repeatedly told he's blind while doing it.*
*A page later, argues Spidey could web his eyes.*
Originally posted by krisblaze
Holy shit people are debating this seriously
I blame PIS. Writers love to write crazy over the top stuff with popular characters.
I know I sure would, if I had a hellish job like cartooning. "Sure, lets have Batman judo flip Doomsday. Then have him kick over Imperiex Prime. Why not?"
Editorial: "Go away, I'm busy drinking.
I wanted to editor news, dammit."
Originally posted by cdtm
*Sees scan of Orion catching bullet then throwing it with pinpoint accuracy., is repeatedly told he's blind while doing it.**A page later, argues Spidey could web his eyes.*
Originally posted by carver9
http://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS?r
This guy himself a speedster, or is he referring to his weaponry?
Originally posted by carver9
http://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS?r
hrm.
Firing a bullet doesn't make you the speed of sound.
