Can ANYONE Go To Heaven?

Originally posted by Greatest I am
In your scenario, you would have to see God creating a person insane, and then to punish that insane person for doing what insane people do would be unjust.

That logic would apply to those susceptible to manipulation by evil people.

You may not like the implication of Universalism but it is the most just system possible for a heaven, especially if you consider that it is unjust to punish someone infinitely for sins in a finite world.

If you raise your child to be a thief, do you hold some blame when he is caught stealing?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
no, i'm saying that maybe at that point it's pointless to have any judgement. but if we're going to have judgement, Hitler goes to hell. I said it before and I'll say it again. Hitler is a bad person. I said it before it was even cool to think Hitler is a bad person.

How did Hitler get to be bad?

Was he born that way or made that way by those around him?

Regards
DL

Can't it be both?

^ Can you prove that Hitler's parents were Anti-Jewish? That they condone murdering a group of people? At some point you made the decision to do the things you did. Personal accountability is a thing for a reason. This wasn't some child soldier situation.

He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

If this is true than there should truly be no judgement as you can not be held accountable for your actions. A cop out in my opinion.

If there is a God and he is not involved any more than creation, then there should also be no judgement due to the fact no baseline was set.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Can't it be both?

If born insane, sure, but then one would have to say that he is not guilty of anything because he does not have the morality to meat mens rea, which says that to be guilty, one must know they are doing wrong and if they do not then they are insane and not guilty due to insanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

Not 100%

Not an illusion but more like something that can be manipulated and is manipulated by the input from others.

Hitler, for instance, here on earth, would be seen as doing his will, but the actions he took would have been with the thumbs up from those around him. If they had not encouraged him, he might not have been able to do what he did.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
i understand that. like i said, to me it seems like either judgement is pointless or there should be some standard of what is and isn't to be forgiven. So if you just fall back on the determinism angle to render the judgement of a Hitler type character unjust, then I believe you're essentially saying judgement is pointless. that's fine. just a sort of amoral catch-all afterlife that everyone gets into, rather than "heaven" and "hell."

Judgement would be pointless as God would always judge us all to be innocent because we would always be doing what we do thanks to those who interacted with us beforehand and set our morals or lack of morals.

Perhaps that is what Jesus meant with his ---judge not.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus was speaking of the spirit world, judge not applies.

If Jesus was speaking of the real world, then he is a fool as we must judge to weed out those who would do harm to us.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

😂 😂 Makes me think of the "foot massage" discussion from Pulp Fiction.. haha

We can't blame Jesus for acting out occasionally. He was the product of magical rape, kinda like Voldemort. WWVD?

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Judgement would be pointless as God would always judge us all to be innocent because we would always be doing what we do thanks to those who interacted with us beforehand and set our morals or lack of morals.

Perhaps that is what Jesus meant with his ---judge not.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus was speaking of the spirit world, judge not applies.

If Jesus was speaking of the real world, then he is a fool as we must judge to weed out those who would do harm to us.

Regards
DL

You're putting absolutely no accountability on the actual person. IMO, that is wrong. You can't blame everyone for your own failings. To some degree, yes, your upbringing affects your end state, but unless it was some sort of extreme circumstance, you still have knowledge of right and wrong. To blame others for the way someone turns out is a cop out.

Just to be clear though, if heaven is real and someone encounters Hitler in heaven, is it wrong to face punch him?

Yes, Violence is bad. If you made it to Heaven, isn't forgiveness your forte or something?

Originally posted by socool8520
You're putting absolutely no accountability on the actual person. IMO, that is wrong. You can't blame everyone for your own failings. To some degree, yes, your upbringing affects your end state, but unless it was some sort of extreme circumstance, you still have knowledge of right and wrong. To blame others for the way someone turns out is a cop out.

That is not so.

You're putting absolutely no accountability on the actual person.

In heaven. That is not me it is God and as I said, if one of us is guilty then we all are.

On earth, of course we are accountable for our actions as we cannot know where the impulse to do the sin or crime came from.

You can't blame everyone for your own failings.

Here, you are correct. In heaven, yes unless everyone else is going to hell with me because I am who I am thanks to others more than thanks to me.

We are all products of our environment and the people in it.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Surtur
Just to be clear though, if heaven is real and someone encounters Hitler in heaven, is it wrong to face punch him?

According to the Gnostic Christian God, yes.

If you want full justice, you would have to start face punching every person from his mother on up who had any input into making him the prick he became.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by socool8520
Yes, Violence is bad. If you made it to Heaven, isn't forgiveness your forte or something?

Good point and God should be the epitome of forgiveness which bolsters my position of his forgiving everyone. Right?

Regards
DL

Except their is Hell so at some point there is no forgiveness. Also, God did wipe out the world once if the Bible is to be believed so even God would have his limits. I've always found that to be highly contradictory.

Originally posted by socool8520
Yes, Violence is bad. If you made it to Heaven, isn't forgiveness your forte or something?

I dunno, I figure someone could be an unforgiving d-bag without being worthy of hell.

Yeah but violent and unforgiving? That's a no-no