Originally posted by The_Tempest
The critical problem with your argument is that it's completely dishonest. It's disingenuous as hell to attribute those amplifiers to Vitiate's "presence," which was boosted significantly by rituals, the power of eight thousand Sith Lords, a planet's worth of life energy, and fourteen centuries of activity.Comparing that to Plagueis/Sidious's ritual, which was conducted between exactly [b]two
Sith Lords and spanned a couple of months, isn't particularly flattering for Vitiate.And that's assuming I generously grant you your very liberal appraisal of Vitiate/HOT in the first place. (Which Beni has already debunked: it's based on nothing more than Revan's opinion.)
k mmm [/B]
Except that again, Vitiate's intent was not to actively 'nudge' the Force using yoga zen bullshit. It was the byproduct of other evil shit he was engaging in at the time.
He was accumulating personal power and making an empire, and effectively outstripped Sidious or Plag-e-ass in terms of achieving immortality and being a force of nature unto himself.
If you want to be really petty, Sids got benchpressed into a chasm and then shot in the back by a muggle, and Plags died in his sleep of Nyquil overdose. Their ability to do Dark Side tantric mode didn't do shit for them then.
^ Lowball mode engage
Originally posted by AncientPower
So, like most of Europe and the United States then? But without the crippling multi-trillion dollar debt.Please continue with your complete lack of knowledge about my country. 😂
If this is the best you idiots can come up with in reaction to Chee nuking Plagueis wank, then just delete your accounts.
> Thinks their third world country is in any way comparable with the most advanced/powerful nation that has ever existed.
> Rofl.
This topic is getting derailed. A few points in short.
- Blurbs are very fallible (obviously)
- A force wide unbalancing wasn't the goal of Vitiate
- The goal of immortality was desired by Plagueis
- Vitiate achieved it in a sense
- Plagueis is probably less powerful than Nhillus or Vitiate
- He's potentially weaker than Murr or Kun in a combat sense
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except that again, Vitiate's intent was not to actively 'nudge' the Force using yoga zen bullshit. It was the byproduct of other evil shit he was engaging in at the time.
The problem is that there's no evidence that the Force was 'nudged' at all.
He was accumulating personal power and making an empire, and effectively outstripped Sidious or Plag-e-ass in terms of achieving immortality and being a force of nature unto himself.
Not really: the ritual on Nathema prolonged his life, but did not confer upon him immortality per sources like the SWTOR Encyclopedia and Codex.
If you want to be really petty, Sids got benchpressed into a chasm and then shot in the back by a muggle, and Plags died in his sleep of Nyquil overdose. Their ability to do Dark Side tantric mode didn't do shit for them then.^ Lowball mode engage
I see you've been triggered.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, it did take a boatload of shit to make Vitiate the factual most powerful and dominating Force sensitive to eve live up to his time.However, Vitiate was never, as far as I know, actively trying to imbalance the Force. The ritual - the 8,000 Sith Lords - so on and so fourth, was all to make Vitiate more powerful on personal level and grant quasi immortality. He was never actively trying to participate in a tug-of-war with the Force, or it's agents. The effect Vitiate had on the Force's balance, or anything related to it, and what not, was strictly a by-product of his powers and insidious deeds, not the crux.
My point is: Vitiate was such an iniquitous anomaly in the Force, that the omnipresent energy field felt the need to spawn a prophesied champion of light, a thousands years in the making Plagueis and Sidious had much greater results and a significant more potent affect on the galaxy, but that was their goal they prepped for it, they sought it out and tried with all their might , and it was a shared feat that can't be just handed to one or the other.
Vitiate on the other hand greatly affected the Force by simply, and essentially, being him, and not trying to defy particularly.All I'm saying is, given the circumstances, I don't know how, or why people see that as the definitive Plagueis > all but Sidious argument. Vitiate never tried to unbalance the Force, but he never wanted to - his ultimate goal was to absorb the entire galaxy and the Force with it.
Umm...
Vitiate: "You discern a fraction of reality. Beyond these stars exist other galaxies, other worlds, other beings. I will experience of ignore them as I wish. I will spend eternity becoming everything: a farmer, an artist, a simple man. When the last living thing in the universe finally dies, I will enjoy peace, and wait for the cycle to begin again."HoT: "You will never possess that kind of power."
Vitiate: "There is no death, there is only the Force, and I am its Master."
Someone who declares himself the Master of the Force would probably want to dominate it or defy it, especially given said person's end goal he just there described.
Too bad Vitiate never even came close, despite living for almost 1500 in total. Plagueis came far closer in just a few decades, and with Sidious' help, yes, but what you may not have taken into account is that Sidious was considerably weaker than Plagueis when they performed the feat and thus the majority of the work was Plagueis' doing, and that Plagueis grew in power significantly after that point. I'd wager prime Plagueis could replicate the feat solo, although perhaps not to such extreme results.
And I still don't understand why people even cling to that - or the blurb - as the primary source of Plagueis' supremacy. ILS explained it perfectly a few months ago, and so far no one has successfully debunked it. Basically, what dictates your ability to use the Force is your baseline willpower; this can be seen all over SW, in all eras, but to cite a few examples:
Darth Sion and Revan - keep their bodies together through sheer willpower, attaining immortality and thus circumventing the need to study.
Bane vs Zannah - Bane resists Zannah's highly complex Spells of Madness through sheer willpower, thus circumventing the need for extensive study.
Maul vs Obi-Wan - TPM Padawan Obi-Wan resists Maul's Force Suppression, one of the most rare and advanced Force abilities (in the opinion of Darth Bane, a highly knowledgeable Sith Lord) through sheer willpower despite never having heard of the technique, thus circumventing the need for study.
Darth Wyyrlok vs Darth Andeddu - Wyyrlok resists Andeddu's mental attack and turns it back on him, killing the latter, through sheer willpower despite never having heard of the technique, thus circumventing the need for study.
Cade Skywalker vs Darth Maladi - Cade resists Maladi's mental attack and turns it back on her through sheer willpower despite having never heard of the technique, thus circumventing the need for study.
Noticing a pattern here? No matter how long-lived, knowledgeable, studied or versatile of a Force user Vitiate may be, it is all irrelevant in the face of sheer willpower. Plagueis, of course, has more willpower than any other SW character aside from the later incarnations of Palpatine and Luke, and possibly Yoda. This can be seen in his midi-chlorian manipulation ability, which perfectly embodies the kind of dominance he achieved over the Force; the kind that Vitiate never did. Midi-chlorians are the organnells that the Force uses to exert its will over the physical world; they are the basis of all life and allow living beings to touch the Force, so manipulating them would be the equivalent of manipualting the will of the Force, life itself, and the Force on its most fundamental level.
And that is exactly what Plagueis did, and the results were nothing short of mind-numbing. Plagueis mastered life an death, allowing him live forever by simply willing it, or kill someone by simply willing it, or bring someone back from the death through the same method. He could erase existing midi-clorians or create new ones from scratch, essentially making himself - or anyone - weaker or stronger just by thinking about it. He could grant himself any Force ability he desired, again, simply by willing it, once more showing how he could defy the Force's will and dominate it.
Valkorion never came close to stratching the surface. As a result of possessing inferior willpower, Valkorion's ability to use the Force is also inferior, and thus, he is a less powerful Force user than Darth Plagueis. In the end, it could be said that midi-chlorians weren't executing the Force's will; they were executing Plagueis' will. If the Force is a god, then Plagueis is also one. Plagueis is not just the penultimate Banite Sith, he is the penultimate Sith Lord, period. And Valkorion pales in comparison.
I've also made the case here, if anyone wants a read:
You can ignore the stuff about the blurbs, that's not even the crux of the argument.
Someone who declares himself the Master of the Force would probably want to dominate it or defy it, especially given said person's end goal he just there described.
His way of "defying it", was absorbing the very thing that it bounded together - the galaxy, which is a bit above simply imbalancing it, until his plans were thwarted by HoT and crew.
Far as I know, he has never made an attempt to actually imbalance it, because he simply had bigger ambitions.