Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He did it to Professor Zoom (or Zoom, one of them),who has his own Negative Speed Force to protect him.
Probably, but the one I'm thinking of happened to (I believe) a rogue, pre Nu52.
Captain Boomerang, Cold, Mirror Master.. One of them...
It definately wasn't another speedster.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's a punch. Go and throw a punch as hard as you can at something, then throw one at 50%power.Which fist travelled faster?
We have comic book physics talking about how one's striking power increases the faster you travel (Barry/Wally are human level, the Zoom's are human level as well). Hell, the Zoom's create sonic booms just from snapping their fingers.
So comic book physics dictate the faster your speed,the more kinetic energy you pack into a punch.
The only way a flurry of punches WOULDN'T hurt as much, would be if you pull your fist back before it fully connects (try it). Cocking your fist back for the next blow.
But we see blood being drawn with Doomsday. Punches don't stack up; if you drum your fingers really quickly on your forearm, all those little taps don't suddenly add up to a single punch. So the punches being thrown were strong enough to make the participants bleed.
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a flurry of punches are simply taps. Just not putting their full weight behind it. Powerful enough to hurt/do damage, but not powerful enough to knock down.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
A jab is easily 50% less powerful than a right cross, yet a right cross travels no faster than a jab.In real life, punches in flurries are not as hard as single punches because the objective of instantaneous follow up punches prevents a fighter from fully committing to each punch. The actual velocity of a single power punch is no less than the velocity each flurry punch or any single less powerful punch. The difference in power is due to the amount of the rest of your body that is thrown into the punch.
Fast punches are fast, not because they travel faster but because they are thrown faster. Hard punches generally require the fighter to cock more, thus taking more time to get the punch off.
An eight year old can cause your lip to bleed from a punch. Without the bloody mouth, Doomsday would appear to be tanking those blows and borderline no-selling them.
Except this all falls over at the speeds comic speedsters fight at.
4000 punches in a couple of seconds? That sounds really fast, but remember these are guys who are reacting at light speeds, which is so much faster than that.
IOW, 4,000 punches a second, or even in half a second, is a veritable millennium to them. So every punch can be agonised over, debated, weighed up, cocked, then fired off.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
But the reality of Sugar Ray Leonard's stamina would mean that the power of each punch in that flurry would quickly reduce to the point of him not doing much more than simply touching them with his gloves. Hence the energy drain theory.That would depend on how those 4,000 rapid mallet or punch strikes are consistently portrayed in the comics.
I am talking about sugar ray leonard having Superhuman stamina. If he were to have superhuman stamina (like in this case) he will kill tyson, Ali and. Gorilla with 4000 punches in the face. You get the concept right?
Also He is making Doomsday bleed! For crying out loud.
I've seen Thor, Sentry and Hulk have a bloody face with much less than 4000 Superman punches.
Also I would like to present this new theory to the boxing association that people does not get KO with a fast flurry of 4000 punches to the face 😂
Originally posted by leonidas
sometimes it is. speed effects are FAR less consistent than the other things you brought up though.
It's really not. How many instances where each of a flurry of punches seeming as effective as a single hard punch can you think of. I'll give you the Supes/Lobo one even though it's not an actual "flurry", so that's one. How many others can you come up with?
Originally posted by leonidas
😕thanks....? you simply pointed out--again--the illogical nature of a super speed punch doing less damage than a regular punch...
Originally posted by leonidas
it's also omnipresent that speedsters like flash or zoom or even ss don't end fights in the first picosecond. it's also omnipresent that superman-style bricks like superman, hyperion or gladiator don't dodge every punch a normal brick throws or use their speed to fight in the space of nanoseconds or blitz at light speed. those have nothing at all to do with 'quirks' in the universe and everything to do with PIS. super speed is a unique issue. everyone knows this.
you can't say flash NOT using his speed IS pis, but super speed punches doing LESS damage isn't. that....doesn't even make sense. super speed causes loads of problems. we don't need to resort to made up 'quirks' that make no sense. that's why we have the pis rule in place.
No it's not. Flash DOES end fights right off a lot against cannon fodder and such. There are times when characters like Supes decides to use speed to dodge hits like against DD Rex. But actual super speed flurries where each punch seems like the character is putting all of their weight/power behind it are virtually non existent.
And when you things like "super speed is a unique issue", that IS demonstrating a double standard. One standard for super speed, another standard for everything else.
Originally posted by leonidas
i disagree, again. tons of fights have guys standing for prolonged periods going toe-to-toe and smashing each other. but super strength portrayals are shown with far more internal consistency than speed is. not sure you're getting this because you keep drawing false analogies. the contradiction with speed punches is more like watching hulk fight thor and seeing hulk punch thor across a street into a car, then watching spiderman fight thor and punching him across the street, over the car and over the building behind the car into the next state. the weaker guy hits harder?? wut? the guy that throws punches faster hits with less force?? wut? why does it happen? pis.
It's not PIS, it's logical. If a full power punch from Character A is enough to send Character B flying or even just knock him down, it would be logical for Character A to use less than full force so he can actually land a flurry of punches in rapid succession.
Originally posted by leonidas
going in circles as i addressed this point already. and it wasn't me who brought up opponents 'standing their ground'. i've tried to stay focused on the effects of super speed because that's what we're talking about.a final time: there are things we accept as readers--we see thor and hulk stand toe to toe slugging it out over and over. we see planes and bridges and buildings lifted without breaking. those things stay vastly consistent throughout comics. when someone doesn't go flying, we don't care or even notice half the time. why--because those things are consistently portrayed across comics. and its pretty obvious no one cares by the lack of all the "why aren't characters sent flying in fights??1!?" discussions on the forum.
contrast that with the effects of super speed. in nearly every thread where a character has speed and a different character doesn't speed is brought up and argued. speed is such an issue that forum rules have been built and established around the idea of its use. some characters use speed CONSISTENTLY to hit harder (speedsters) yet others use it and hit...less hard? makes no sense. and speedsters don't always send people 'flying'. if hulk hitting someone doesn't send them flying every time, why would i expect a bunch of super speed punches to do so? in fact, in light of all the time super strong characters DON'T send someone flying, or only move them a small disatnce, if they did, THAT could be viewed as inconsistency. that's why your analogy is false and, more than that, is a strawman. you're comparing something that is consistent to something that isn't. the proof is the lack of concern people have over one, and the, sometimes extreme, concern people demonstrate over the other. to carry it even further--even with the lessened force of the speed punches, given superman's strength he should STILL send an opponent flying for maybe miles with the very first blow. but no one cries PIS about that. why? because of the way fights are commonly portrayed we don't even NOTICE that he doesn't send an opponent flying with the first punch. yet this is an idea you want to use as a 'logical' argument? ultimately logic fails. it's a comic. we draw the line at things that are most consistently shown, or should, imo.
We also see things like opponents actually go flying and stuff crumbling when a character is trying to support it. You can say that characters doing stuff that doesn't make sense to the suspension of disbelief, but by the same token flurries at seemingly less power can ALSO fall under that heading because that's the way they're portrayed 99% of the time.
Originally posted by leonidas
sure, they could. and if you wanna go ahead and call it PIS that someone isn't sent flying by every single super punch, and advocate for it to be ruled as such, i wish you the best of luck. you do seem to have an issue with it. to be clear, it IS obviously PIS (imagine how stupid fights would look if they hit each other miles at a time, the damage they would do to surroundings), but it's of such a consistently depicted nature that we as readers easily suspend disbelief when someone isn't sent flying. we don't feel the need to fish for reasons or 'quirks' to explain it away. there are characters who have made their careers in similar manners--batman, logan. the effects of super speed though are very different. as this discussion blatantly illustrates.
You're absolutely right in saying that super speed can impart power, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that punches thrown in a flurry seeming less effective is VERY consistent.
Originally posted by leonidas
and i'd have no problem with that if the physics was consistently shown across the board and across characters. we've blatantly, on panel, seen the relationship between force and acceleration holds in comics. speedsters have shown it time and time again. but when superman does it suddenly the greater the acceleration, the LESS the force output? physics breaks down because he's superman? but only sometimes. that's not a 'quirk'. that's pis, plain and simple. or cis, which i'm inclined to accept. but in a typical forum fight, where the dome is unbreakable, if he were to get someone up against it, and throw 4000 super speed punches without any pis or cis? well, that would be messy for most.
Unless I'm mistaken, the dome is also supposed to have spectators so as to encourage super heroes to fight like super heroes and not just unleash max power area attacks when they're able to. Also, I've heard nothing about the stadium being indestructible. That's the battlefield for most tourney fights, but I've never heard talk of it in a generic forum fight. That being the case they could absolutely get knocked out of the stadium and it be considered BFR unless they can get back in a timely fashion, but the opponent couldn't pursue him to follow up on the attack because that would be voluntarily leaving the battlefield(which isn't allowed).
Originally posted by leonidas
we'll not be seeing eye to eye on this issue and we've already started making circles so you're free to have the last word.tbh i don't care enough about the issue to ask for a mod ruling regarding super speed punches, but if it continues to be such an issue i would be happy to make a case for it being PIS to pr or bada.
Ok that's cool. Always fun debating with you leo 🙂
Also, please don't interpret my short responses to your point as me being dismissive. I just didn't go into a lot of detail dissecting because you were ready to put an end to the convo so I just kinda summed up.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I am talking about sugar ray leonard having Superhuman stamina. If he were to have superhuman stamina (like in this case) he will kill tyson, Ali and. Gorilla with 4000 punches in the face. You get the concept right?
But we are talking about extremely rapid fire punches right? I mean, If Sugar Ray is able to take 4 whole days to continually punch them with full power, then yes. But if it's a case of him throwing 10 punches per second for more than 11 hours, then those punches are going to be pitty pat punches because that is the only way that he can throw punches that fast. As I said before, it takes more time to throw a power punch due to the time it takes to plant, utilize your body and follow through. The suggestion here is that Superman gives up power in favor punch volume in this instance.
And Superman doesn't have infinite stamina. You are giving superhuman stamina to a non-superhuman, but Superman's stamina is comparable to his strength and durability. So it's not unreasonable to surmise that combining mountain or planet shattering punches with superspeed would consume to much of Superman's energy, so he either does one or the other. In this case, he gives up power in favor of punch volume. This is supported by what has been consistently shown in the comics.
Also He is making Doomsday bleed! For crying out loud.I've seen Thor, Sentry and Hulk have a bloody face with much less than 4000 Superman punches.
If Thor, Sentry and Hulk have been similarly bloodied far less punches that this, doesn't that support the weakness of Superman's punches in this instance?
Also I would like to present this new theory to the boxing association that people does not get KO with a fast flurry of 4000 punches to the face 😂
I don't think that boxing commissions are concerned with that which is not realistic. A single flurry may have at most 5 or six punches.
Someone remind me of this argument when Surfer is supposed to use weakness exploitation on Superman.
Oh right, Darth will vehemently support it even if Surfer has never done it.
On matter of blitzing taking out characters.
Originally posted by abhilegend
When superman isn't using his speed? Flash gets tagged all the time by Rogues, does it means suddenly his speed is human level and all his feats are PIS? Great logic, Goku couldn't lift 40 tons and got a bloody forehead by his wife smacking him with a frying pan. All his feats are PIS now.
How many you want? Bizarro?Ultraman?
Cyborg Superman?
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/ManOfSteel052j.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/ManOfSteel052k.jpgLobo?
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual04a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual04b.jpgCaptain Marvel?
Need more or is this enough to shut you up?
Lobo, Ultraman, Captain Marvel, Cyborg Superman and Bizarro are all so weak!!!
Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a flurry of punches are simply taps. Just not putting their full weight behind it. Powerful enough to hurt/do damage, but not powerful enough to knock down.
Originally posted by abhilegendermm
And remind me to ask for scans of Silver Surfer using kryptonite and red sun in a comic next time you start that bullshit.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except this all falls over at the speeds comic speedsters fight at.4000 punches in a couple of seconds? That sounds really fast, but remember these are guys who are reacting at light speeds, which is so much faster than that.
IOW, 4,000 punches a second, or even in half a second, is a veritable millennium to them. So every punch can be agonised over, debated, weighed up, cocked, then fired off.
But we consistently see the lesser power of each of those punches portrayed in the comics. Such consistent portrayal does not support each punch being weighed up, cocked and fired off. Superman appears to be hitting DD with a bunch of arm punches and Superman has affected DD more with a single punch in the past.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
But we consistently see the lesser power of each of those punches portrayed in the comics. Such consistent portrayal does not support each punch being weighed up, cocked and fired off. Superman appears to be hitting DD with a bunch of arm punches and Superman has affected DD more with a single punch in the past.
Hence, PIS.
Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.
As for the Stamina? He's benched the Earth weights for five days straight without rest, and without sunlight. Even for humans, try benching 10kg (let alone 50 lol) for five days without rest or food/water.
If people are worried that it's a DC thing, imagine this dialogue, but with Marvel telepaths. Does Prof X mind whammy and tell everyone to sleep as soon as the thread starts? Is that a yes? Well....
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Superman has never in his life fought or hit anything at light speed.
Hence, PIS.Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.
As for the Stamina? He's benched the Earth weights for five days straight without rest, and without sunlight. Even for humans, try benching 10kg (let alone 50 lol) for five days without rest or food/water.
If people are worried that it's a DC thing, imagine this dialogue, but with Marvel telepaths. Does Prof X mind whammy and tell everyone to sleep as soon as the thread starts? Is that a yes? Well....
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence, PIS.Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.
As for the Stamina? He's benched the Earth weights for five days straight without rest, and without sunlight. Even for humans, try benching 10kg (let alone 50 lol) for five days without rest or food/water.
If people are worried that it's a DC thing, imagine this dialogue, but with Marvel telepaths. Does Prof X mind whammy and tell everyone to sleep as soon as the thread starts? Is that a yes? Well....
All in a nanosecond.
@JBL: That's not what I said in that post, but ok!
If we want to hand wave it all away and say, well, that's comics...
Enter: Batman. Who takes sucker punches from pissed off, non holding back gods of war, whilst sick, and half naked.
All in a canon, mainstream comic.
Wait! It's PIS, because DC can't have Batsy smeared across the pavement! We gotta have a nice little fight scene, where both sides get some hits in!
