[QUOTE]As I’ve explained in other threads, HoTlander starts off his career as a very strong Jedi, and continues to grow in power quite fast. Barsen’thor who gets his best feat in act I+Satele in her prime is inferior to Act I HoT, and there is also significant gap between Act II HoT and Act III HoT (he moves from Scourge level to significantly above him). In SoR/early-KOTFE, it is safe to assume that he would grow more powerful, not to mention that he became a battlemaster.
Now, that title doesn’t mean much because of other low-level combatants who are known to be battle masters. However, they don’t have HoT’s power. This is important, because as I’ve already said a couple times, a Jedi’s dueling capabilities are determined by their strength and speed, which are determined by their Force amp based on their power. Now, the Hero is extremely powerful, as I will explain later on, so his force amp that gives him speed and strength should be in parallel with that. Skill is the other factor, which we know that the HoTlander is a melee specialist and has mastered all of the lightsaber forms.
The safest way of gauging HoT’s power is his Act III feats. He fights his way through Dromund Kaas and Vitiate’s elite, on a dark side nexus that was so strong, that even in the later centuries (which most likely made the nexus less potent), it made Kyle Katarn barely feel his connection to the Force. Jaina, Luke and Yoda struggled with it as well. After the already disadvantageous position he was in, wasting time against Vitiate who was rebuilding his power made things even harder when he faced him. After Vitiate was struck down, which made him lose a lot of his power (even sent to him to a state where he couldn’t return to physical form by himself). Yet, he was able to bring down a huge portion of the temple down. It is pretty logical and straightforward to assume that he was at least as powerful as he was after being struck down in his fight against the Hero.
So, with this power that amps him greatly, plus his confirm technical mastery and orientation as a melee/saber combatant, it is a very conservative calculation to say that HoT is SoD Maul level.
Arcann is a better duelist and RAGDOLLS him. Unless you think that Vader can easily ragdoll SoD Maul, you would have to accept Arcann is at least Vader level.
Now, the Outlander already slightly surpasses Arcann in KOTFE, who in return is significantly below Vaylin in the Force, and in KOTET, Vaylin stalemates Arcann in sabers. This happens before Vaylin unlocks her powers later on in KOTET. The Outlander is in the same tier with peak Vaylin in the Force, and is the better duelist.
Again, unless you think Vader >>>>>> SoD Maul/ROTS Kenobi tier, there is no way that he can compete with the Outlander in his prime.[/quote[
Originally posted by Sinious😕
Disney canon has no importance when comparing PT characters to Legends characters from other eras.SoD Maul level was a conclusion I conservatively reached for SoR/KOTFE HoTlander to make the point that even if he is only SoD Maul level, Vader being above prime Outlander becomes a ridiculous notion. What the HoT did in Act III against a more powerful Vitiate than the one that brought down a large portion of the Dark Temple (under extremely disadvantageous circumstances) and the assessment we can make for his dueling abilities from his raw power+battlemaster accolade is more than enough to compare him to the likes of Dooku, and perhaps even Vader himself.
Don't forget that this guy becomes the supreme leader of the galaxy in his twenties. His coming was prophesied 300 years before his birth. It's no surprise that he outshines Vader. Even the gigantic gap between him and Valkorion has decreased significantly.
Based on all of this, Arcann is EASILY Vader level, and the Outlander is significantly above that level. Get over yourself and realize how much more powerful the Outlander has become since early-KOTFE.
Great! You can start by responding to this:
@DD
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ignoring the fact that Starkiller had; fought off Imperial boarding forces, overcharged a cannon that split a Star Destroyer in half, shifted cruiser debris, guided the descent of a 300 meter ship while simultaneously shielding it from the heat of atmospheric reentry, blew apart 150 meters of ship and fought through the Kaminoan complex before facing Vader and that Vader's "ragdoll" amounted to little more then a momentary Force grip with the two still fighting evenly when Vader was "doing everything in his power to stop him."
😐
You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.
--The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLtfXEcg8SXCyg0OzYjGjBFmmX_OWeEdYs&v=cfv-dH40fwY (6:42) (12:00)
It can hardly be dismissed as a momentary Force grip when Vader's success is solely attributed to power, and Vader ragdolls him twice in the Wii version without SK breaking free, not to mention that Vader disarms him with TK, which can only be done if the gap between Force users is very big. SK may not have been in the best condition given that he pulled off the things you mentioned before the fight, but he was hardly showing signs of fatigue either, and almost every time Vader ragdolled him he was rage amped, which would've made up for any potential loss in power from the feats prior to the fight. And only in a rage-amped state could he stalemate Vader; when he was operating under normal conditions Vader casually and disinterestedly fended him off, and when both were rage-amped, Vader pushed him to the edge of the platform and SK conceded the duel.
RotJ Vader is "far more formidable" than TFU II Vader, who Force rapes SK, who Force rapes the Outlander.
@Sinny
As I’ve explained in other threads, HoTlander starts off his career as a very strong Jedi, and continues to grow in power quite fast. Barsen’thor who gets his best feat in act I+Satele in her prime is inferior to Act I HoT, and there is also significant gap between Act II HoT and Act III HoT (he moves from Scourge level to significantly above him). In SoR/early-KOTFE, it is safe to assume that he would grow more powerful, not to mention that he became a battlemaster.Now, that title doesn’t mean much because of other low-level combatants who are known to be battle masters. However, they don’t have HoT’s power. This is important, because as I’ve already said a couple times, a Jedi’s dueling capabilities are determined by their strength and speed, which are determined by their Force amp based on their power. Now, the Hero is extremely powerful, as I will explain later on, so his force amp that gives him speed and strength should be in parallel with that. Skill is the other factor, which we know that the HoTlander is a melee specialist and has mastered all of the lightsaber forms.
The safest way of gauging HoT’s power is his Act III feats. He fights his way through Dromund Kaas and Vitiate’s elite, on a dark side nexus that was so strong, that even in the later centuries (which most likely made the nexus less potent), it made Kyle Katarn barely feel his connection to the Force. Jaina, Luke and Yoda struggled with it as well. After the already disadvantageous position he was in, wasting time against Vitiate who was rebuilding his power made things even harder when he faced him. After Vitiate was struck down, which made him lose a lot of his power (even sent to him to a state where he couldn’t return to physical form by himself). Yet, he was able to bring down a huge portion of the temple down. It is pretty logical and straightforward to assume that he was at least as powerful as he was after being struck down in his fight against the Hero.
So, with this power that amps him greatly, plus his confirm technical mastery and orientation as a melee/saber combatant, it is a very conservative calculation to say that HoT is SoD Maul level.
Arcann is a better duelist and RAGDOLLS him. Unless you think that Vader can easily ragdoll SoD Maul, you would have to accept Arcann is at least Vader level.
Now, the Outlander already slightly surpasses Arcann in KOTFE, who in return is significantly below Vaylin in the Force, and in KOTET, Vaylin stalemates Arcann in sabers. This happens before Vaylin unlocks her powers later on in KOTET. The Outlander is in the same tier with peak Vaylin in the Force, and is the better duelist.
Again, unless you think Vader >>>>>> SoD Maul/ROTS Kenobi tier, there is no way that he can compete with the Outlander in his prime.
So basically, you start off by listing the HoT's achievements, and then without doing any sort of comparison or forming an actual argument, you baselessly conclude he is SoD Maul level. And based on that you then state that only if Vader can't ragdoll Maul, he is Arcann level, without actually opposing the idea or making a case against it, making your final conclusion shaky as hell, not to mention based off of false information: The Outlander defeated Arcann in Ch.8 because he was amped by Valkorion, and also had a special lightsaber designed specifically to combat Arcann; there is no proof Outlander could have defeated him on his own; you also baselessly state peak Outlander is Vaylin-tier, but how can that be when Valkorion's spirit failed to do jack shit to even chained Vaylin but managed to ragdoll the Outlander without gestures? Valkorion's spirit also concluded he couldn't solo Arcann, proclaiming him too powerful.
Constructed in the wilderness of Odessen, this unique weapon has special properties that make it significantly more powerful when facing Arcann in battle.
--The Old Republic
"My son is too strong. You need my power. Only together can we strike him down."
--Valkorion, Knights of the Fallen Empire Chapter 8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dTfgNzDiu8 (1:25)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FbTdLy3xO3E (2:53)
Given that Valkorion’s children are clearly more powerful than the Outlander, they can be dismissed out of the equation. So the best you have is HoT running the Kaas gauntlet, and maybe growing a bit after that. And even then, he struggles to bring down a stalagmite.
Even if you dismiss this as a low showing due to the dark side nexus (which is fair enough), you really can’t wank HoT off of his fight with Vitiate, since if the latter lost to someone who struggles with moving a stalagmite, yet in a weakened state can collapse a ceiling containing multiple such stalagmites, we can safely assume HoT’s victory wasn’t due to his power, but rather due to his opponent’s incompetency as a combatant. Which wouldn’t be surprising, given Vitiate’s humiliating performance against Revan and co. Aside from Vitiate, the only thing HoT really did was killing some random dark side losers. The best you can get out of that feat is him resisting the nexus itself, which had the power to turn a thousand slaves mad, a nice feat, but hardly quantifiable in raw Force power; and being more powerful than Lord Scourge, who is nigh featless.
HoT then gets some scaling from Satele, but given that her best feat is scrapping some droids and blowing up rocks while amped, I don’t see how that’s in any way comparable to Starkiller’s feats, which include manipulating and bringing down a Star Destroyer, splitting a Star Destroyer in half, and disintegrating roughly ⅓ of a 300-meter-ship while shielding himself from heat comparable to the outer layers of a star. In fact, I don’t see how the Outlander wouldn’t get crumbled into a ball by a person like that, much less by Vader, to whom Starkiller is fodder.
Then there’s Vader’s growth to consider. Note how during TFU I he was roughly equal with Marek in power, but just one year later, he is capable of stomping an even more powerful Force user, so just imagine how powerful he would get in the five years between TFU II and RotJ. Vader mused how he was more powerful than ever, and given how he was a Sith even pre-suit, Knightfall - who steamrolled Dooku - is fair game. Lucas then stated post-suit Vader is 80% of Palpatine’s power. You know, the guy who can TP the entire Imperial Army (tens of trillions) and ragdoll 19 km Super Star Destroyers.
Vader megastomps, no difficulty, no effort whatsoever. Valkorion vs Vader would be a more even match.
Lmao he's clearly struggling with effort to break a single stalagmite.
Meanwhile Vader can use telepathy to send ships into stars, survive the explosion of entire bases with barrier, crumple AT-ATS, collapse cathedrals, and lift freighters.
Its not close Vader's beaten duelists like Kenobi who stomped Maul in 3 moves, and fought multiple Jedi at once, beaten Galen/SK, Ahsoka Tano, and was considered by Sidious to be greater than Maul or Dooku in the Vader comic.
No way he loses to a scrub like Outlander who only even beat Arcann due to the ship destabilizing his footwork.
You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.
--The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...p;v=cfv-dH40fwY (6:42) (12:00)
It can hardly be dismissed as a momentary Force grip when Vader's success is solely attributed to power, and Vader ragdolls him twice in the Wii version without SK breaking free, not to mention that Vader disarms him with TK, which can only be done if the gap between Force users is very big. SK may not have been in the best condition given that he pulled off the things you mentioned before the fight, but he was hardly showing signs of fatigue either, and almost every time Vader ragdolled him he was rage amped, which would've made up for any potential loss in power from the feats prior to the fight. And only in a rage-amped state could he stalemate Vader; when he was operating under normal conditions Vader casually and disinterestedly fended him off, and when both were rage-amped, Vader pushed him to the edge of the platform and SK conceded the duel.
RotJ Vader is "far more formidable" than TFU II Vader, who Force rapes SK, who Force rapes the Outlander.
@Azzie
The campaign guide refers to Vader gripping and throwing Starkiller in the Xbox and PS3 when it mentions "ragdolling." Not the forum sense of the word where it refers to domination.
If we're using the Wii cutscenes then Vader is capable of TK dominating a weakened Starkiller, yes. I assumed we weren't because scripted events like the following occur.
Scenes like this would place Starkiller as the superior lightsaber combatant given Vader was unable to react to his attacks in both instances. Seeing as that's illogical not only in the sense that it doesn't align with any of the other versions but in that Vader should logically have superior augmentation if he is capable of dominating Starkiller to the extent he did, I don't find it to be the best version to gauge the character's capabilities, though if that version is your preference we can certainly debate the validity of Vader accomplishing those feats against what was essentially a spent Starkiller. Something you neglected to address in your last response.
Sorry, but I'm not seeing how somebody being disarmed with a Force attack is indicative of a large gap in Force power when it happened to Yoda in his fight against Sidious despite them being near equals.
"Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod." - RotS Junior Novel.
RotJ Vader was "far more formidable" then his TFUII incarnation? He grew in power during the OT, certainly, but I don't recall their being a quote stating he had grown far more formidable between TFUII and his prime in RotJ. At least not in regards to Force power. If you'd be so kind as to provide the quote in reference to Force power, that'd be great.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang1) Cathedral feat doesn't prove that he can ragdoll SoR Revan, despite being pre-prime and under harsh circumstances (not unlike HoT's feat).
->Vader decades pre-prime while nearly dead has collapsed a cathedral->Vader was >= Starkiller before growing "far more formidable" who can disintergrate a 200 m ship
-> Vader before growing "far more formidable" was more powerful than Ben Kenobi who himself was much more powerful than his ROTS counterpart who could crack, hold upright and wreck rows of 500 m megaliths
-> Vader's inferior in Dooku per being loosely comparable to AOTC Yoda shares a degree of parity or near parity with TPM Sids who happens to canonically above the Outlander's superior in Valk
-> Vader has tanked lightning while severely weakened from the most powerful sith lord of all time who is canonically vastly above the outlander for several seconds.
2) Didn't Ant prove that this feat is much less impressive than how it's wanked? In any case, this feat by itself at best proves that Vader can also ragdoll SoR/-early-kotfe Outlander, which is Arcann level. Not peak Outlander level.
3) Don't mention this to me until you respond to Skillz. This feat is being seriously questioned right now.
4) Yooku scaling is complete BS. Sidious and his more or less equal Yoda are both tiers above Dooku. Sidious' performance agaist the Zabrak brothers and Dooku's performance against Talzin makes this even more obvious. I consider this topic a waste of time at this point.
5) This is a terrible argument. The entire manner of Sidious' death in ROTJ makes little sense as a whole, but to claim that Vader can tank his lightning because of this scene where Vader is going full sacrifice mode, when we have countless angles to establish a gigantic gap between Vader and Sidious (and Vader's particular vulnerability against Sidious' lightning) is simply not gonna convince anyone.
The outlander even of his prime has nothing that touches Vader's best feats or his best lines of scaling and hence gets destroyed. Even his superior in Vaylin is missing feats or scaling to place herself on par with Vader(her feats are sub-Starkiller frankly).Actually, I'm waiting for you to show me actual >>Arcann level showings from Vader. Keep in mind that Yoda and Luke struggled with (a most likely less potent) DK's nexus and Kyle Katarn barely sensed his connection to the Force because of it. The Hero solo'd through the capital and then defeated Vitiate's most elite guards, exhausting himself in result and giving enough time to Vitiate to gather more power in contrast. Since he is bringing down a huge portion of the temple down and is at least considerably more powerful than that during the fight, HoT's victory against him way before his prime becomes an extremely impressive showing.That the Outlander is>>>>his pre-prime incarnation is meaningless until you show me what any version of the outlander has that place shim on Vader's level.
@DD
The campaign guide refers to Vader gripping and throwing Starkiller in the Xbox and PS3 when it mentions "ragdolling." Not the forum sense of the word where it refers to domination.
Yes, I realize that, I ain’t stupid. You of course completely neglected to address my point, so it stands.
If we're using the Wii cutscenes then Vader is capable of TK dominating a weakened Starkiller, yes. I assumed we weren't because scripted events like the following occur.
Wtf does this do to alter my point? But you at least you conceded the fact that Vader can dominate Starkiller, so concession accepted.
Scenes like this would place Starkiller as the superior lightsaber combatant given Vader was unable to react to his attacks in both instances. Seeing as that's illogical not only in the sense that it doesn't align with any of the other versions but in that Vader should logically have superior augmentation if he is capable of dominating Starkiller to the extent he did, I don't find it to be the best version to gauge the character's capabilities, though if that version is your preference we can certainly debate the validity of Vader accomplishing those feats against what was essentially a spent Starkiller. Something you neglected to address in your last response.
I don’t care about the lightsaber thing since it’s not relevant to proving Vader’s superiority to the Outlander. You can complain all you want about how it doesn’t make sense to you, but the fact is it’s just as canon as the other versions, and given you’ve conceded that Vader did indeed dominate SK, you’ve just conceded this debate.
Did you even read my post, dude? I addressed SK being “weakened.” Go back and re-read it.
Sorry, but I'm not seeing how somebody being disarmed with a Force attack is indicative of a large gap in Force power when it happened to Yoda in his fight against Sidious despite them being near equals.
Yeah, and Lightning is totally the same as TK.
RotJ Vader was "far more formidable" then his TFUII incarnation? He grew in power during the OT, certainly, but I don't recall their being a quote stating he had grown far more formidable between TFUII and his prime in RotJ. At least not in regards to Force power. If you'd be so kind as to provide the quote in reference to Force power, that'd be great.
It refers to both Force power and lightsaber combat.
Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
--Insider #62