Originally posted by Azronger
Great! You can start by responding to this:
Someone wants to die young.
1. Vader holding back is fine, but that doesn't mean he was refraining himself when he was trying to ragdoll him If Vader's goal is to capture, not kill, he'd logically put as much power as possible in incapping with tk which is much less risky than trying to incap someone with a lightsaber.
And it really doesn't address that Starkiller was exhausted
2. Post quote please?
I'll also add this was a vader far from his prime, so whether or not he can outright ragdoll starkiller as of tfu doesn't change vader is much more powerful than starkiller is
@Azzie
Yes, I realize that, I ain’t stupid. You of course completely neglected to address my point, so it stands.
What was the point of bringing up that quote if not to support your position that Vader is capable or "ragdolling" Starkiller in the forum sense of the word?
Wtf does this do to alter my point? But you at least you conceded the fact that Vader can dominate Starkiller, so concession accepted.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm understanding you. I noted that the Wii version is an inconsistent source and therefore something I wasn't sure you'd accept as valid which is why I posted the response I did. Is there something you're not understanding?
I don’t care about the lightsaber thing since it’s not relevant to proving Vader’s superiority to the Outlander. You can complain all you want about how it doesn’t make sense to you, but the fact is it’s just as canon as the other versions, and given you’ve conceded that Vader did indeed dominate SK, you’ve just conceded this debate.
Did you even read my post, dude? I addressed SK being “weakened.” Go back and re-read it.
The lightsaber thing IS relevant given it indicates Vader's augmentation does not scale to his ability to manipulate Force energy ( ala Vitiate ). That, or his ability to manipulate Force energy is greater then his ability to augment himself ( ala Kenobi ). A small distinction, but an important one since I don't believe Vader would be able to ragdoll a prime Outlander just as I don't believe he would be able to ragdoll a prime Starkiller.
That was your "explanation?" Are you kidding me? Dooku is a prime example of a Force user being able to "wipe away their fatigue" and appear to be at full strength when their energy reserves are nearly depleted and in neither of the instances where Starkiller was dominated was he enraged beforehand. The first instance you referenced in your previous post actually has Vader noting that Starkiller's feeling for Juno had weakened him.
Yeah, and Lightning is totally the same as TK.
What's the difference between a hilt being wrenched from your hand via TK or Lightning? In both cases your augmented grip on it is being overcome.
It refers to both Force power and lightsaber combat.
The problem with that being that your argument is based around Vader's ability to ragdoll the Outlander in which only Vader's ability as a Force user is relevant. Not only that, but the quote you're referencing doesn't even state Vader's grown in power. Rather it states he's become a superior lightsaber combatant and gained greater mastery over the Force. Not power.
I’ve already explained what I clearly worded in the first place. I will not do it again every time someone doesn’t get my points, but this wasn’t what I’m saying at all. More importantly, your point here is completely irrelevant. This is the same reason why I disregarded Zoltan’s post. Here is why you are factually wrong:
- Valkorion gave the Outlander a permanent, self-sufficant amp, which he maintains in his peak incarnation that we are pitting against Vader here.
- The special lightsaber and the training/new philosophy stuff he gained was about countering Arcann’s unique application of the Force, which makes it harder for Jedi/Sith. If the reason why the Outlander performed so much better is due to that, than it means Arcann with that unique application has such an advantage against other Jedi/Sith, including Vader. This means that Arcann can literally ragdoll and out duel his equals/slight superiors. So, this changes nothing in regards to Vader vs Outlander or Vader vs Arcann.
- Spirit Valkorion ragdolled KOTFE Outlander who is significantly below KOTET Outlander, and if you are referring to the end of KOTET, Valk gains control over him at that point. His relationship and control over HoTlander is not comparable to Valkorion.
- Valkorion’s motives made what he said to HoT about his power and his children very unreliable. His comments on his children are not a good base for an argument.
- About the stalagmites: HoT only takes his time with it. Even Yoda does that with small objects, and unlike Yoda, HoT has no facial expressions that suggest any struggling. This is the dark side ending and he is killing the Emperor himself. He might be enjoying it and so purposefully taking his time. You have no proof of anything here.
- Even if we take the interview at face value, Vader didn’t stomp Starkiller, and SK fought his way through to Vader before he faced him.
- Vader is very clearly not 4/5 of ROTJ Sidious. GL quote was more than likely talking about Anakin’s potential there anyway.
- Valkorion vs Vader is hilariously one-sided.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader held back anyway
Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
and Sam confirmed that Vader can shit stomp Starkiller.
Not a canonical source.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Vader holding back is fine, but that doesn't mean he was refraining himself when he was trying to ragdoll him If Vader's goal is to capture, not kill, he'd logically put as much power as possible in incapping with tk which is much less risky than trying to incap someone with a lightsaber.And it really doesn't address that Starkiller was exhausted
2. Post quote please?
I'll also add this was a vader far from his prime, so whether or not he can outright ragdoll starkiller as of tfu doesn't change vader is much more powerful than starkiller is
1. As pointed out in the response to DC he's canonically confirmed to be going all out.
Going to need evidence from you for why prime Vader is equal to Starkiller let alone greater.