Outlander vs. Darth Vader

Originally posted by Sinious
I've already explained my reason for bringing Maul into this, as he served as a mere example. One I have abandoned a couple pages ago. Keep up. 👆

Regardless, as one argument a day keeps KMC awake, I'll address your argument now

Originally posted by Sinious

1) Cathedral feat doesn't prove that he can ragdoll SoR Revan, despite being pre-prime and under harsh circumstances (not unlike HoT's feat).
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2. The Hot strained to pull a single part of the ceiling, Vader brought down a cathedral, the feats aren't comparable.

Originally posted by Sinious
2) Didn't Ant prove that this feat is much less impressive than how it's wanked? In any case, this feat by itself at best proves that Vader can also ragdoll SoR/-early-kotfe Outlander, which is Arcann level. Not peak Outlander level.
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1. Vader caught Starkiller off guard(in actuality, Starkiller attacked Vader)
2. Starkiller broke out of Vader's grip(in actuality Vader threw him away, like a ragdoll)

3. The only actual context that can agued to apply here is that Starkiller was exhausted. Luckily I never said anywhere that TFU Vader could outright ragdoll Starkiller. Per authorial intent and Starkiller's own admission, Vader is better which is sufficient given this Vader had yet to grow "far more formidable".

4. Regardless, given that even peak Outlander has done nothing rivalling Starkiller's best showings, I'd love for you to back up this assertion.

5.

Originally posted by Sinious
3) Don't mention this to me until you respond to Skillz. This feat is being seriously questioned right now.
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Originally posted by Sinious
4) Yooku scaling is complete BS. Sidious and his more or less equal Yoda are both tiers above Dooku. Sidious' performance agaist the Zabrak brothers and Dooku's performance against Talzin makes this even more obvious. I consider this topic a waste of time at this point.
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2. The Zabrak brothers aren't relevant here. They get nothing from scaling to Dooku in anyway and hence render your point moot.
3. Talzin possessing Dooku over a substantial period of time hwen he is defenseless proves nothing, your point is moot.

4. Dooku and Yoda being in separate tiers doesn't make sidious a tier above Dooku

5. I hope you have a better counter here than an appeal to incredulity based on irrelevant observations.

Originally posted by Sinious
5) This is a terrible argument. The entire manner of Sidious' death in ROTJ makes little sense as a whole, but to claim that Vader can tank his lightning because of this scene where Vader is going full sacrifice mode, when we have countless angles to establish a gigantic gap between Vader and Sidious (and Vader's particular vulnerability against Sidious' lightning) is simply not gonna convince anyone.

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Originally posted by Sinious
Actually, I'm waiting for you to show me actual >>Arcann level showings from Vader.
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Originally posted by Sinious
Posted them, You've yet to post anything comparable for Arcann
Keep in mind that Yoda and Luke struggled with (a most likely less potent) DK's nexus and Kyle Katarn barely sensed his connection to the Force because of it. The Hero solo'd through the capital and then defeated Vitiate's most elite guards, exhausting himself in result and giving enough time to Vitiate to gather more power in contrast. Since he is bringing down a huge portion of the temple down and is at least considerably more powerful than that during the fight, HoT's victory against him way before his prime becomes an extremely impressive showing.
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Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Starkiller broke out of Vader's grip(in actuality Vader threw him away, like a ragdoll)
3. The only actual context that can agued to apply here is that Starkiller was exhausted. Luckily I never said anywhere that TFU Vader could outright ragdoll Starkiller. Per authorial intent and Starkiller's own admission, Vader is better which is sufficient given this Vader had yet to grow "far more formidable".

2. Kbro. You yourself note that Vader would have been doing all in his power to incapacitate Starkiller with TK.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader holding back is fine, but that doesn't mean he was refraining himself when he was trying to ragdoll him If Vader's goal is to capture, not kill, he'd logically put as much power as possible in incapping with tk which is much less risky than trying to incap someone with a lightsaber.

If that's your stance then it indicates that Vader is incapable of maintaining a Force grip on Starkiller long enough to incapacitate him before he would've escaped.

3. Can you explain to me why authorial intent trumps a third person canonical statement? And then, once you've done that, why you still hold DE Sidious above Exar Kun despite statements by the author of both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi.

@ Rocky
I'll reply to that terrible response of yours later (no offense), but I want to address your comments on Yooku scaling now.

1) Yoda is on par with ROTS Sidious, not TPM Sidious, lmfao.

2) Zabraks are relevant because Savage and Ventress fought Dooku and Dooku had trouble overwhelming them. It was far from a stomp, and Sidious (Yoda's equal) on the other hand completely humiliates the Zabraks, who are a superior duo. Evidently, Sidious and Yoda are above Dooku's level.

3) A weakened Talzin managed to take over Dooku instantly. He wasn't defenseless. What are you even talking about here? LOL

4) As I've explained, this is wrong.

5) Ain't that ironic? 😂

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
2. Kbro. You yourself note that Vader would have been doing all in his power to incapacitate Starkiller with TK.

If that's your stance then it indicates that Vader is incapable of maintaining a Force grip on Starkiller long enough to incapacitate him before he would've escaped.

3. Can you explain to me why authorial intent trumps a third person canonical statement? And then, once you've done that, why you still hold DE Sidious above Exar Kun despite statements by the author of both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi.

The wii version renders any speculation you have about the matter moot.
2. Post this c anon statement? And whether or not Vader was holding back doesn't change that Vader was superior, unless there's some c canon statement you have saying otherwise.

3.
A. Because one is just an opinion, the other is an explanation for what happened in what happened in what they have authority over

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Vader throwing Starkiller away doesn't at all mean Starkiller was about to break his grip which is again, baseless speculation. As it is, force users commonly incapacitate opponents by choking them and then throwing them. Unfortunately for Vader, Starkiller stuck a landing.

The wii version renders any speculation you have about the matter moot.
2. Post this c anon statement? And whether or not Vader was holding back doesn't change that Vader was superior, unless there's some c canon statement you have saying otherwise.

3.
A. Because one is just an opinion, the other is an explanation for what happened in what happened in what they have authority over

1. Then why would Vader have thrown him away if, as you mentioned, his goal was to incapacitate Starkiller? Why wouldn't he have choked him out till he was incapacitated or smashed him against the floor until he went unconscious rather then release his grip on him?

What speculation of mine does the Wii version render moot?

2. "Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked." - The Force Unleashed II.

He was superior to a weakened version in the Force and inferior as a lightsaber combatant.

3. Not when it contradicts objective C canon quotes. Unless you have something indicating otherwise.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Then why would Vader have thrown him away if, as you mentioned, his goal was to incapacitate Starkiller? Why wouldn't he have choked him out till he was incapacitated or smashed him against the floor until he went unconscious rather then release his grip on him?

What speculation of mine does the Wii version render moot?

2. "Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked." - The Force Unleashed II.

He was superior to a weakened version in the Force and inferior as a lightsaber combatant.

3. Not when it contradicts objective C canon quotes. Unless you have something indicating otherwise.

1, Because then there wouldn't be a fight. Plot's a thing.

2. That Vader couldn't have maintained his grip for a long time.

3. Hmm, was this when Starkiller was enraged?

4. Was Starkiller not rage amped for part of the fight?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1, Because then there wouldn't be a fight. Plot's a thing.

2. That Vader couldn't have maintained his grip for a long time.

3. Hmm, was this when Starkiller was enraged?

4. Was Starkiller not rage amped for part of the fight?

1. Plot isn't a valid excuse for a character doing something illogical.

2. I'm not arguing that Vader couldn't/didn't do that in the Wii version. I'm arguing that trying to make that argument off the PS3 Xbox version is not viable.

3. Nope.

4. Not as far as I'm aware.

Originally posted by Sinious

1) Yoda is on par with ROTS Sidious, not TPM Sidious, lmfao.

2) Zabraks are relevant because Savage and Ventress fought Dooku and Dooku had trouble overwhelming them. It was far from a stomp, and Sidious (Yoda's equal) on the other hand completely humiliates the Zabraks, who are a superior duo. Evidently, Sidious and Yoda are above Dooku's level.

3) A weakened Talzin managed to take over Dooku instantly. He wasn't defenseless. What are you even talking about here? LOL

4) As I've explained, this is wrong.

5) Ain't that ironic? 😂

1) ROTS Yoda. Not AOTC Yoda who between AOTC and ROTS, overcame a massive confrontation in Y😄R letting go of his attachment to Dooku and then in season 6 perfected his spirit.

2) In that arc where Ventress managed to ragdoll Anakin+Obi(both who've beaten her 1 v 1) while weakened and where Oppress managed to simultaneously drive back both despite Kenobi alone outclassing the fck out of Oppress on florrum?

I take that with a grain of salt, especially considering how Dooku had the advantage vs a vastly superior duo in Season 6 Kenobi+Anakin

3) Ah, my bad, I thought you were referencing Sod. Yes, Talzin was able to take over dooku, with the help of a ritual with the aid of an object Revan doesn't have here. The point's still moot. Talzin has never legitimately dominated Dooku in any legitimate way.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Plot isn't a valid excuse for a character doing something illogical.

2. I'm not arguing that Vader couldn't/didn't do that in the Wii version. I'm arguing that trying to make that argument off the PS3 Xbox version is not viable.

3. Nope.

4. Not as far as I'm aware.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I don't need an excuse when the wii version outright confirms that Vader could. I do hope you're willing to apply this to other fights as well.
2. Good thing there's two version's then
3. Hmm? I wanna hear what AZ has to say
4. AZ argued that, some text for what he's referring to would be nice. I mean, it would make sense given that sk thought Vader had just killed Juno. He certainly seemed angry about her death from the cutscenes for what it's worth

1. I'm not arguing with the events that occur in the Wii version. Just your logic for why that would be the case in the other versions.

2. Same as above. ^

3. Sounds fine to me.

4. He knew she was still alive per the novel.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. I'm not arguing with the events that occur in the Wii version. Just your logic for why that would be the case in the other versions.

2. Same as above. ^

3. Sounds fine to me.

4. He knew she was still alive per the novel.

time to start my response to extreme4skillz I suppose

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not a canonical source.

I'm sure your retarded interpretations of the fight is more legit than the word of the lead writer of the game itself 👆

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
time to start my response to extreme4skillz I suppose

Stop disrespecting my name 🙁

Peak Vader (Knightfall) wins.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Stop disrespecting my name 🙁

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'm sure your retarded interpretations of the fight is more legit than the word of the lead writer of the game itself 👆

Nah. But the third person canonical source that contradicts his statement is.

Time to get back to this.

@DD

What was the point of bringing up that quote if not to support your position that Vader is capable or "ragdolling" Starkiller in the forum sense of the word?

That was exactly the point, and I’ve already explained how it counters your point and supports mine. Go back and actually read my post this time.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm understanding you. I noted that the Wii version is an inconsistent source and therefore something I wasn't sure you'd accept as valid which is why I posted the response I did. Is there something you're not understanding?

Oh, I understand perfectly, and once more, I couldn’t give a shit about Vader’s saber showings there, since they’re not relevant to proving his superiority to the Outlander. And given that you’re not denying your concession, I’ll take it as a sign that I’ve won this. Discussion over. I’ll address the rest of your nonsense once more, though, but if you’re still peddling it after this post, I won’t respond.

The lightsaber thing IS relevant given it indicates Vader's augmentation does not scale to his ability to manipulate Force energy ( ala Vitiate ). That, or his ability to manipulate Force energy is greater then his ability to augment himself ( ala Kenobi ). A small distinction, but an important one since I don't believe Vader would be able to ragdoll a prime Outlander just as I don't believe he would be able to ragdoll a prime Starkiller.

It would be relevant if augmentation itself would be relevant. Hint: it isn’t, and neither is this entire paragraph.

That was your "explanation?" Are you kidding me? Dooku is a prime example of a Force user being able to "wipe away their fatigue" and appear to be at full strength when their energy reserves are nearly depleted and in neither of the instances where Starkiller was dominated was he enraged beforehand. The first instance you referenced in your previous post actually has Vader noting that Starkiller's feeling for Juno had weakened him.

Dafuq are you bringing Dooku up for? And yes, SK was enraged, lol, considering the scream he lets out after Vader presumably kills Juno. The novelization and game even support the notion that he was enraged the whole time after that point, yet Vader still ragdolled him in the Wii version.

What's the difference between a hilt being wrenched from your hand via TK or Lightning? In both cases your augmented grip on it is being overcome.

And with TK your Force Shields must be overcome, too, which requires a ragdoll-level difference, whereas with Lightning only the augmented grip must be overcome. Massive difference.

The problem with that being that your argument is based around Vader's ability to ragdoll the Outlander in which only Vader's ability as a Force user is relevant. Not only that, but the quote you're referencing doesn't even state Vader's grown in power. Rather it states he's become a superior lightsaber combatant and gained greater mastery over the Force. Not power.

Weren’t you just arguing that certain quotes aren’t referring to the forum definitions of the term? To me it’s very clear that “mastery over the Force” refers to becoming a more capable Force user overall, including power. In fact, the dictionary definition of the term is “control or superiority over someone or something” so being able to move bigger objects with the Force (=being more powerful) would by definition be classified as greater mastery over the Force.

Sinny

I’ve already explained what I clearly worded in the first place. I will not do it again every time someone doesn’t get my points, but this wasn’t what I’m saying at all. More importantly, your point here is completely irrelevant. This is the same reason why I disregarded Zoltan’s post. Here is why you are factually wrong:

Yes, you have, and it doesn’t change the fact that almost everything you’ve said – your explanation included – is baseless. I get your points, but they’re still baseless (for the most part).

Valkorion gave the Outlander a permanent, self-sufficant amp, which he maintains in his peak incarnation that we are pitting against Vader here.

Proof for it being permanent?

The special lightsaber and the training/new philosophy stuff he gained was about countering Arcann’s unique application of the Force, which makes it harder for Jedi/Sith. If the reason why the Outlander performed so much better is due to that, than it means Arcann with that unique application has such an advantage against other Jedi/Sith, including Vader. This means that Arcann can literally ragdoll and out duel his equals/slight superiors. So, this changes nothing in regards to Vader vs Outlander or Vader vs Arcann.

Fair.

Spirit Valkorion ragdolled KOTFE Outlander who is significantly below KOTET Outlander, and if you are referring to the end of KOTET, Valk gains control over him at that point. His relationship and control over HoTlander is not comparable to Valkorion.

I posted a video about Valkorion ragdolling the Outlander in KotET, so which do you think I’m referring to? Not sure what you mean by Valkorion “gaining control” of the Outlander, though. It looked like standard domination to me.

Valkorion’s motives made what he said to HoT about his power and his children very unreliable. His comments on his children are not a good base for an argument.

Good thing that I didn’t present simply comments, but rather an explicit showing of Valkorion failing to do jack shit to even chained Vaylin.

About the stalagmites: HoT only takes his time with it. Even Yoda does that with small objects, and unlike Yoda, HoT has no facial expressions that suggest any struggling. This is the dark side ending and he is killing the Emperor himself. He might be enjoying it and so purposefully taking his time. You have no proof of anything here.

Neither do you, lol. All you’ve offered to me so far from HoT taking his time to enjoying killing Vitiate is nothing more than speculation – no more valid that my interpretation of HoT struggling with it. And your reference to Yoda is invalid; there are explicit showings and scaling of Yoda being far above pillar-level, whereas with the HoT, I don’t recall anything better that he’s done on the Kaas nexus.

Even if we take the interview at face value, Vader didn’t stomp Starkiller, and SK fought his way through to Vader before he faced him.

Already addressed. And you’ve completely failed to even address my points regarding Starkiller, so he still shits on the Outlander, and so does Vader.

Vader is very clearly not 4/5 of ROTJ Sidious. GL quote was more than likely talking about Anakin’s potential there anyway.

Not of RotJ but RotS. And no, it refers to Vader in the present.

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

--George Lucas

Every single instance where Vader is mentioned referring to the present, so not his potential. Vader is 80 % of RotS Palpatine. Deal with it.

@Azronger

That was exactly the point, and I’ve already explained how it counters your point and supports mine. Go back and actually read my post this time.

Except it doesn't because the statement isn't referring to "ragdolling" in the forum sense of the word since the it's referencing Starkiller being thrown and released from Vader's grip rather then Vader maintaining it.

Oh, I understand perfectly, and once more, I couldn’t give a shit about Vader’s saber showings there, since they’re not relevant to proving his superiority to the Outlander. And given that you’re not denying your concession, I’ll take it as a sign that I’ve won this. Discussion over. I’ll address the rest of your nonsense once more, though, but if you’re still peddling it after this post, I won’t respond.

You're right in that it's not relevant to his level of power in comparison to that of the Outlander. Where it IS relevant is how he compares overall which I find to be relevant as I don't think dominating a spent Starkiller he specifically trained hindrances into ( per the text ) means he can dominate the Outlander. You understand that Vader dominating a Starkiller who has used up vast energy reserved does not mean Vader is capable of replicating this feat against a prime Starkiller or Outlander. That's the point I'm making.

It would be relevant if augmentation itself would be relevant. Hint: it isn’t, and neither is this entire paragraph.

And why is that.

Dafuq are you bringing Dooku up for? And yes, SK was enraged, lol, considering the scream he lets out after Vader presumably kills Juno. The novelization and game even support the notion that he was enraged the whole time after that point, yet Vader still ragdolled him in the Wii version.

Because Dooku was able to appear poised and even playful despite using up vast amounts of his own energy ( ala Starkiller ). So the only evidence you have to support your position is Starkiller letting an initial howl despite the sentence immediately after stating it's turned into despair and Starkiller even sincerely offering to work together with Vader after they've exchanged a few blows. Sorry, not buying it.

And with TK your Force Shields must be overcome, too, which requires a ragdoll-level difference, whereas with Lightning only the augmented grip must be overcome. Massive difference.

Where does it state that a Force user's defenses extend to their lightsabers?

Weren’t you just arguing that certain quotes aren’t referring to the forum definitions of the term? To me it’s very clear that “mastery over the Force” refers to becoming a more capable Force user overall, including power. In fact, the dictionary definition of the term is “control or superiority over someone or something” so being able to move bigger objects with the Force (=being more powerful) would by definition be classified as greater mastery over the Force.

The quote you referenced in the campaign guide is in context of Starkiller being thrown without Vader maintaining his grip which makes it a fact that it doesn't refer to the fan-made forum sense of the word while we know that mastery ( in regards to Force user's ) in the Star Wars universe generally refers to a level of control or advancement in a certain ability. TK is the most basic ability so while I could see an argument for his control in this area getting better there's no reason to think that his magnitude would.