Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your assertion that what valk "is" isn't relevant as he's now an entity but what he "was" holds relevance is baseless.
No, that's not my assertion at all. Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore because he rejected their dogma and created a Force sect individual to those of the Jedi/Sith as a hold, plus he, and other characters actually involved in the story, says he isn't a Sith anymore either.
That's what lead me to come to the conclusion that the quote is referring to, what Valkorion was a species since he was born a pure blood Sith, and is now a Force entity, hence, him being a Sith entity. Just like a human spirit/ghost/apparition was born a human, and later become a non-corporeal being, yet still keeping the "human" tagged attached to their name, despite not being a human by any stretch.
How is this any different from Valkorion's case?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your example falls flat because while a human apparition isn't a human, it also isn't a sith(species)
What? Not getting your point here at all. Change the quote around to....
"Aundrae is an ancient human apparition with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the world."
That would be absolutely the same thing, no difference whatsoever, doesn't make me a human, tho. 👆
Originally posted by ZenwolfI agree with you that it is utter shit and makes no sense. However, Rokcy's claims remain untrue. Between learning this new thing and getting amped by Valk, Outlander manages to defeat Arcann, when he was getting ragdolled by him. We have no way of knowing how much of this difference is caused by the new philosophy. However, Satele says Arcann's unique application is the reason why they couldn't defeat him. So, I'm guessing it's not irrelevant at all, and since it is factually difficult for Sith to fight people who uses Valk's new way of the Force, it is retarded to claim Valk is still a Sith based on a sketchy codex entry that was most likely talking about his origins. Not to mention the sketchiness of the blurb itself.
What unique application? TOR did terrible in trying this new Force then...when there's nothing really new about it. It's still The Force, it's still TK, it's still Lighting, it's still everything that the Force always was.
Originally posted by Sinious
I agree with you that it is utter shit and makes no sense. However, Rokcy's claims remain untrue. Between learning this new thing and getting amped by Valk, Outlander manages to defeat Arcann, when he was getting ragdolled by him. We have no way of knowing how much of this difference is caused by the new philosophy. However, Satele says Arcann's unique application is the reason why they couldn't defeat him. So, I'm guessing it's not irrelevant at all, and since it is factually difficult for Sith to fight people who uses Valk's new way of the Force, it is retarded to claim Valk is still a Sith based on a sketchy codex entry that was most likely talking about his origins. Not to mention the sketchiness of the blurb itself.
Satele saying anything about it is pointless because there's nothing different, he could have just been more powerful. A new philosophy doesn't mean anything if nothing different is shown, there are various Force groups that see the Force as something different, but it's still the Force. That and as I recall we see later Jedi and Sith fighting more evenly against Users using this new philosophy. Which is just the Force....it's nothing new other than belief in where it comes from.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your assertion that what valk "is" isn't relevant as he's now an entity but what he "was" holds relevance is baseless.
Your example falls flat because while a human apparition isn't a human, it also isn't a sith(species)I'd hate to waste your time though
@DC: Told you.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, that's not my assertion at all. Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore because he rejected their dogma and created a Force sect individual to those of the Jedi/Sith as a hold, plus he, and other characters actually involved in the story, says he isn't a Sith anymore either.
The supposed difference between the mentioned force sect and jedi/sith is that they draw their power from subservience to valkorian, which fits nicely with Valkorian using them as a means to obtain galactic control. For all his bluster about being a new kind of force user, he's still doing the exact same thing he was trying to do as a sith and is exploiting a force sect he's started for said purpose. Given that the force sect is founded on subservience/loyalty while Valkorian's philosophy is based on his own supremacy and loyalty to none, it stands to reason that the philosophy of said sect of force users has nothing to do with Valkorian's personal philosophy.
Rejecting the dogma or archaic teachings of the empire or old sith isn't the same as not being a sith.
Given that Valk is factually stated to be a sith, and it's revealed his end goal, galactic conquest and a powerful physical host, two fundamentally sith-esque objectives his sith version chased after despite Valk supposedly having grown beyond this, it's obvious Valk is lying here.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That's what lead me to come to the conclusion that the quote is referring to, what Valkorion was a species since he was born a pure blood Sith, and is now a Force entity, hence, him being a Sith entity. Just like a human spirit/ghost/apparition was born a human, and later become a non-corporeal being, yet still keeping the "human" tagged attached to their name, despite not being a human by any stretch.
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Valk isn't a sith(species) by any stretch either. In fact given Valk was last physically a human, why should we assume a title for valk rather than vitiate would refer to what he was as his vitiate incarnation? Valk being an ancient human or sith entity works just fine as regardless of whether his human or sith state is referred to, Valk remains ancient. There's absolutely no reason for this quote to specifically be referring to Valk as the species sith and frankly given this is a description for Valkorian instead of vitiate it would make more sense that his physical form as Valkorian would be referenced here.
Why should we grasp at straws to twist this quote when I've provided a perfectly logical explanation which reconciles all the material on the matter? You're creating a contradiction where there isn't one.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What? Not getting your point here at all. Change the quote around to...."Aundrae is an ancient human apparition with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the world."
That would be absolutely the same thing, no difference whatsoever, doesn't make me a human, tho. 👆 [/B]
Originally posted by ZenwolfI don't see why Satele would manipulate the Outlander or make shit up to look cool.
Satele saying anything about it is pointless because there's nothing different, he could have just been more powerful. A new philosophy doesn't mean anything if nothing different is shown, there are various Force groups that see the Force as something different, but it's still the Force. That and as I recall we see later Jedi and Sith fighting more evenly against Users using this new philosophy. Which is just the Force....it's nothing new other than belief in where it comes from.
Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see why Satele would manipulate the Outlander or make shit up to look cool.
Bad writing?...I mean look what TOR did to the OR era...they tried to make it close to how the movies have it aesthetic wise and that just....completely takes away what was before.
Or just not understanding the philosophy which would make sense. Either way, there's nothing new, the only thing different is those guys believing that their power came from believing in Valk or...whatever.
Saying that Satele was trying to act cool and made shit up to stay relevant and this is all just bad writing is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen. No offense.
In any case, the fact that there is no revelations about such a major plot twist/deceit that is heavily relevant to the story+Satele's own experiences, virtuous character, knowledge of the Force++the fact that Arcann and co or the rest of zakuul never noticed anything different after Valk died/they betrayed him, which didn't draw any attention >>>>>>>>>>> your baseless opinions