The Ultimate Darth Plagueis Essay

Originally posted by darthbane77
As you mentioned in the thread, his draining of Ziost, which he did while in a severely weakened state, and seemed to do with little to no difficulty. That's a planet level feat performed at significantly below full power, on top of that, he was one-shotting small ships through the Outlander during Arcann's invasion of Asylum.

Plagueis doesn't really have anything suggesting he has the ability to perform planet level feats all on his lonesome, and that's supported by the fact that he has never come close to doing so.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
This is no less applicable than any of Valk's rituals. Take away that, and Valk really doesn't have anything more impressive than putting up a telekentic barrier around a fortress(Plagueis's inferiors have done that) or Plagueis's boulder showing.

You sure about that?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You sure about that?

Firstly, it wasn't telepathy. It was midichlorian manipulation, and a failed attempt at that:

"But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out, indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated; to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases."

Secondly, Valkorion did not use rituals for his Ziost feats. Nor his defeat of Revan, the Jedi Strike team, Arcann or many of his other feats. I suggest you go reread his respect thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, it wasn't telepathy. It was midichlorian manipulation,

Originally posted by Nephthys
and a failed attempt at that:
[/B]

Plagueis was powerful enough to reach out to every single being in the galaxy, hence the force intervened to stop him.

Secondly, Valkorion did not use rituals for his Ziost feats. Nor his defeat of Revan, the Jedi Strike team, Arcann or many of his other feats. I suggest you go reread his respect thread.

Did Plagueis use a ritual of some kind to reach out to everyone?

And what does Revan have on par with making a fortress sized telekentic barrier.

Valkorion supporters, please answer for me:
[list]
[*]Why did the Force need the Chosen One to defeat Plagueis and Sidious, but not Vitiate and his empire?
[*]Why are the light and dark sides described as fluctuating in balance during TOR, while Sidious and Plagueis tip it to the dark even *with* the Jedi Order still there?
[*]When has Valkorion tanked the full-powered lightning of a TPM Sidious level opponent for a sustained monologue without any physical injury?
[*]When has any other sith been able to replicate sorcery and rituals *through sheer willpower* without having any affinity for sorcery or even knowing how to f*cking do it?
[/list]

Just a note, but while checking the novel I came across this passage:

"Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena."

This seems to contradict many of the assumptions about Plagueis that have come up. Such that he created a super cold winter or could teleport. I'm interested if anyone knows if this passage is contradicted in these aspects afterwards.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The content of the text would imply the former, (he was planning to affect them mentally not physically) but really, I see no reason to contest this as the feat being mediclhorian manipulation would make it an order of magnitude more impressive than if it was simply telepathy.

No, it directly states that "he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own." The whole informing thing is just a flowery way of saying he'd impact the universe through the creation of life.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The attempt failed because the force directly intervened to ensure his failure. The implication here is obvious:

Plagueis was powerful enough to reach out to every single being in the galaxy, hence the force intervened to stop him.

No it didn't. It directly states that the Force didn't do anything and Plagueis failed. Part of the crux of the book is that Plagueis doesn't really understand the true nature of the Force. The guy was expecting it to boil his midichlorians, he anthropomorphises it way too much.

The Force "grew silent" because he'd failed. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Did Plagueis use a ritual of some kind to reach out to everyone?

And what does Revan have on par with making a fortress sized telekentic barrier.

He might have, it doesn't say.

Revan tanked an attack that would have obliterated a several kilometre wide area and then went on to ragdoll an amped Marr, Satele, Lana and pals and before the fight he was overpowering their defences plus that of the protag (who could be one of the immensely powerful force using classes). But regardless two random Dark Councillors demolished a skyscraper in a fight, that feat isn't all that.

Neph, Plagy reaching out to everyone wasn't him attempting to create a being, it was him bragging about it.

Plagy was "drunk on power" and as a result "informed every being", "waving a banner of triumph." Mediclhorian Manipulation has never been used to manipulate dreams or Inform people of shit. It's obviously telepathy, but frankly, it being medichlorian manipulation makes the feat vastly more impressive.

It directly states that the Force didn't do anything and Plagueis failed.

kbro is right here. If Plagueis were just batting way out of his league the Force wouldn't have bothered to do anything. The Force wouldn't intervene when an angsty sith apprentice just tries to destroy the universe, for example.

No it wasn't. The text directly states that that is what he is attempting to do. You're just bad at interpreting the text.

Because he wasn't actually manipulating dreams (A ghost infiltrating a dream is an obvious metaphor) nor is he actually informing every being of his existence. For christssake, did you forget that Plagueis was in hiding from the Jedi? The Great Plan? The dude isn't going to actually telepathically tell everyone "Oh hey, I'm the secret Sith Lord you've been looking for for a millenia and I just did something cool!" Thats idiotic.

The Force doesn't fly away from him literally, the dude was stronger than ever. He just failed in what he was doing and his midichlorian manipulation only succeeded in creating a bunch of horrible diseases in his lab animals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it wasn't. The text directly states that that is what he is attempting to do. You're just bad at interpreting the text.

Because he wasn't actually manipulating dreams (A ghost infiltrating a dream is an obvious metaphor) nor is he actually informing every being of his existence. For christssake, did you forget that Plagueis was in hiding from the Jedi? The Great Plan? The dude isn't going to actually telepathically tell everyone "Oh hey, I'm the secret Sith Lord you've been looking for for a millenia and I just did something cool!" Thats idiotic.

The Force doesn't fly away from him literally, the dude was stronger than ever. He just failed in what he was doing and his midichlorian manipulation only succeeded in creating a bunch of horrible diseases in his lab animals.

Yes, the Force merely temporarily shrunk away from him, killed his lab experiments and

Spoiler:
spawned the literal Messiah figure of the Star Wars universe

Neither of the first two are accurate and Plagueis was dead long before Anakin held his first lightsaber. The Force isn't bound by the linearity of time, from its perspective (if you can call it that) Plagueis and Palpatine have already failed. It doesn't "think" anything.

Also isn't it a valid interpretation that Plagueis created Anakin at that point?

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]No it wasn't. The text directly states that that is what he is attempting to do. You're just bad at interpreting the text.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he wasn't actually manipulating dreams (A ghost infiltrating a dream is an obvious metaphor)

For christssake, did you forget that Plagueis was in hiding from the Jedi? The Great Plan? The dude isn't going to actually telepathically tell everyone "Oh hey, I'm the secret Sith Lord you've been looking for for a millenia and I just did something cool!" Thats idiotic.

Plagy was "drunk on power"

The Force doesn't fly away from him literally, the dude was stronger than ever.

@Nephthys No idea how your talk about the Force and time do anything to counter my point. Under your interpretation we have to believe that Plagueis never came close to accomplishing those feats, but that the Force spawned Space Jesus to stop him...from something he wasn't even able to do. It's far more logical to conclude that the Force had to stop him because he could have succeeded otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Also isn't it a valid interpretation that Plagueis created Anakin at that point?

😐

So Plagueis can create a being with as much potential as The Father, who can overpower both the Son and the Daughter, both potential universe-busters that can take out full power Abeloth, at once, while after over a thousand years of trying the most Valkorion can do is make a few beasts and Vaylin? How does this help your case again?

Originally posted by The Ellimist

So Plagueis can create a being with as much potential as The Father, while after over a thousand years of trying the most Valkorion can do is make a few beasts and Vaylin? How does this help your case again?

Plagueis didn't create Anakin, the force did.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The text indeed states that intention. But nowhere does the text imply that telepathically reaching out to everyone was the process Plagy was using to make this person. And as I've shown, and as you have ignored, the text implies Plagueis was boasting as he was "drunk in power."

Sigh.

Yeah, it sure does not imply that was how he would do that. Because it wasn't. The whole part of the book is describing Plagueis' experiments in midichlorian manipulation. First it describes him using it to revive someone over and over. Then the following paragraph describes him using it to rejuvenate himself and mend his wounds. Then the paragraph after that starts with "Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own." Meaning that he then attempted to use midichlorian manipulation to create life. Do you understand how that works? How paragraphs proceeding each other flow together to create a coherent narrative? And do you see now, from looking at the actual words, that it says that he was "drunk on power", therefore he attempted "to bring into being a creation of his own"? Not that he was drunk on power so he stared boasting?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Are your strawmen metaphors as well? I never claimed he was literally manipulating people's dreams as a ghost, but infiltrating people's dreams is obviously a metaphor for Plagueis mentally affecting people.

You said "Mediclhorian Manipulation has never been used to manipulate dreams or Inform people of shit." Your intent was pretty clear. But no, its a metaphor for how invisible and transubstantial he was.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
For christ sake, can you read?

I can, in fact I have an English degree. If you had bothered to read it more closely you'd figure out that "Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own" reads as him being drunk on success so he tries to create life. Not that he starts boasting.

And if you'd bothered to check the book, you'd see that the paragraph after what I posted starts with:

"Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count;"

Looks like he wasn't just acting stupidly while drunk on success since 8 years later he's confident that he can still succeed in what he'd previously failed in. In..... what? Telepathically boasting to the universe? No, in midichlorian manipulation.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The text makes clear the force literally wrecked his experiments, your assertion that the force's intervention was hyperbolic is simply wishful thinking.

It doesn't. The Force doesn't just spontaneously kill things out of spite. If it did it really would have just made their hearts explode.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can, in fact I have an English degree.

🤣 One of the funniest one liners in KMC history tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
😐

So Plagueis can create a being with as much potential as The Father, who can overpower both the Son and the Daughter, both potential universe-busters that can take out full power Abeloth, at once, while after over a thousand years of trying the most Valkorion can do is make a few beasts and Vaylin? How does this help your case again?

🙄

Any such Forceful being created by the midichlorians would come out that way. As I recall the book specifically says this. As does the lore in general.

Originally posted by Nephthys
🙄

Any such Forceful being created by the midichlorians would come out that way. As I recall the book specifically says this. As does the lore in general.

How the heck does this counter anything I just said?

I believe your implication is that Anakin's potential would be reflective of Plagueis' abilities if this theory were true. I was pointing that that it wouldn't be.