Originally posted by Nephthys
If Yoda's in midair he won't be able to properly put pressure on Valkorions barrier since he won't have anything to press back against and it'll do little. Also Arcann's overpowered people like the Wrath who's immensely strong.
What Barrier? You mean Valkorion's hand? I don't recall him using Barrier against Arcann.
Revan's had extensive fights against groups of extremely fast individuals. As has been recently pointed out even Marr was capable of moving so fast he appeared to teleport to Darth Lachris. Yet Revan was keeping up with a BM-amped Marr plus 6 other powerful combatants including the protagonist. Plus theres the fact that novel Revan had an entire duel with Vitiate inside of a few seconds. Both Revan and Valkorion grew immensely in power after that point.
Lachris doesn't have anything going for her, so that's not that impressive. Pre-AotC Anakin moved fast enough to appear to be everywhere at once to Obi-Wan, who as of TPM himself was already faster than Qui-Gon and within the range of Maul, both of whom have highly credible speed feats and have better speed feats than Marr.
Revan's feat is good but ambiguous. We don't know how long the fight lasted before he lost, we don't know the nature of how they fought, whether Revan exploited their numbers by getting them in each other's way, etc. He was also immensely amped there, while the others would have been suffering inverse effects save for Marr (but I accounted for him already).
The novel fight being a few seconds was debunked, if I recall correctly. It was just Vitiate unloading the Lightning into Revan which took a few seconds. Though even if it were a few seconds for that fight, that's not that impressive as it's literally just throwing a few Force powers at each other.
Teleportation would only be used to create distance to maintain a Force fight or if Yoda is actually pressuring him with his lightsaber (which itself is unlikely). Such a trivial application of it is easily within the bounds of the ability, which has been used far more practically. Revan uses it in the midst of pitched battle easily.
I don't recognise game mechanics that aren't pivotal to the story. The one time I can be sure of Revan using teleportation was at the end of The Foundry fight, which he did while gathering powers and probably exhausted himself (since he was also holding up the Protection Bubble).
You were suggesting that its not an ability that can be used quickly. But it is, it can be used as quickly as any other power. Valkorions own immense speed and reaction time mean that he'd be more than capable of using it against Yoda.
I was suggesting that it's not as spammable as you suggested. I've yet to see evidence on the contrary. Of course it's an instantaneous power. My point was that it was limited in application. We know all sorts of characters from Jadus to the First Son to An'ya Kuro and even Abeloth could teleport, but they hardly made unlimited use of the power. They still either outright fled or completely failed to muster the ability to do it again when they started losing. My assumption is that Valkorion isn't going to outright flee here as that would count as BFR'ing himself out of the fight and losing.
Gosh, if only I had actually just said that. Thanks for explain that for me, I hadn't quite got it.
That's why I said it was irrelevant and obvious.
As I said, I'm purely arguing for its use in supplementing Valkorions own reaction time to deal with Yoda's supposedly superior speed.
Yes, and I still don't understand how that works.
It means that he can both move and attack in stopped time, or at the very least he can attack at the exact instant he resumes regular time such that its indistinguishable.
Of course it's indistinguishable. The only time there's an attack in this supposedly stopped time is when the Outlander accepts Valkorion's power, which of course won't take extra time. That's just adding Valkorion's Force reserves on top of the Outlander's, something which wouldn't actually require additional time. So all it took was the time for the Outlander to actually use a Force attack as normal.
Of course he could have easily killed Arcann and the Outlander in Chapter 1. The whole point was that he wasn't taking it seriously and got surprised. AP and I already proved that Valkorion can both use his power (charge it, manipulate it etc) and attack in stopped time.
Alright, lol. And no, you haven't. Once again, the only thing that ever happens in stopped time is conversation and the Outlander choosing to add Valkorion's powers onto his own. Whenever any actual attack happens, it goes back to normal time, as the Outlander is now taking action in the real world and not conversing with Valkorion in his head.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's not accurate to all descriptions of Force users in combat. Sometimes its the exact opposite in fact. Not all of them can casually grind time down to a halt , move around and attack while their opponent is frozen. Unless you're going to fanatically claim that Yoda is so super sonic he can beat time stop with goes fast its usefulness is apparent to anyone with a working brain.
Sel just provided a good example of Scourge seeing Visions such that it appears that time stopped, and that's probably a good comparison. Valkorion just talks to the Outlander within his head as if it were a sort of vision, something which just isn't relevant in a fight.
I just proved that untrue. In fact I just went and checked the Heskal video and you can see Heskal still frozen in time right before the Outlanders attack hits him.Even if that were true, which I've proven it isn't, being able to freeze time and then instantly launch an attack at an opponent when time resumes is insanely useful in combat.
Nope, that's exactly as I addressed above. The "charging up" or "attacking" is just an animation to represent you accepting Valkorion's power, something which realistically would take just about no time in real time as well. As soon as an actual attack occurs (ie. instantaneous) time is back to normal.
Plus theres this:PTNYICZ8twg&t
At 12.13 Valkorion uses the Force to lift the Outlander in time stop. Then at 12.39 he further uses it to force him on his knees and continues manipulating him. He even uses telepathy.
What are you talking about? At 12:13, when Valkorion lifts the Outlander, Senya and Arcann can clearly witness it in real time and are screaming "No!".
At 12:39, he seemingly goes into the Outlander's mind. That's it. We then get a prolonged mental sequence, and by the time it cuts back to real time we just have Arcann and Senya by the Outlander's side while he's entranced on the throne.
The Outlander shares a host relation with him that's proven to be an integral aspect to every use of this "time stop" power, which has shown and by Valkorion's own word has no effect on the outside world. Given this host relationship is absent here, I have good reason to suspect the power itself will be.
Yoda has even less of a chance that when we started his discussion now that we've started really examining this ability. I thank you.
You're welcome. Nice to see you haven't lost that fine mental edge, Neph.
This exercise has proven that Valkorion's time affecting powers are literally just him going into the head of his host and having conversations with their psyche without consuming real time. As Valkorion himself warns, time in the real world hasn't stopped and therefore actions still need to be taken as normal.
Examples of Valkorion actually stopping time for any real combative purpose (or without involving a host) have been, understandably, rather scarce. 👆
Anyway,
Even if he can't stop time he can still adapt his own perceptions and react accordingly, which is still laughably better than anything in the mythos. It also scales nicely off of Leneer's own perceptions/speed.
I'm still not seeing this grand L the Plagueis brigade is trying to make things out to be.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Anyway,Even if he can't stop time he can still adapt his own perceptions and react accordingly, which is still laughably better than anything in the mythos. It also scales nicely off of Leneer's own perceptions/speed.
I'm still not seeing this grand L the Plagueis brigade is trying to make things out to be.
He's communicating with his host's psyche without taking time. That's all the apparent freezing of time is. Valkorion doesn't actually affect time or the perception of it in any meaningful way, lol. I would compare it to Karness Muur conversing with Celeste Morne in the Vector comics, particularly in her fight against Vader.
Completely irrelevant and useless in any versus forums scenario. This entire "time stop" shtick has been a complete misnomer. It's nothing of the sort.
Yes, that's another example. It's just a moment of supernatural perception that consumes no real time. The implication is that when Sidious goes back to real time, no/a negligible amount of time has actually passed. I believe it's the same with the Jedi heading into Mortis and coming back out after three episodes.
But this isn't actually some sort of vision, so I maintain that the best example is Muur conversing with Celeste Morne. It's that same communicating with the host that we have here with Valkorion and the Outlander (right down to the offering power thing, only Celeste refuses Muur), not any actual manipulation of time. He's not even affecting their perception of time. It's completely useless in combat.
I'm still not seeing a feat comparable to the stompage of the Outlander, Arcann, and the spirits of Vaylin, Revan, Marr and the aid of Satele Shan to boot.
I'm also not seeing anything comparable to Vitiate simultaneously stalemating Sel-Makor, suppressing Vaylin, dominating Revan, dominating the Dread Masters, dominating the Hero of Tython, Tol Braga, Leeha Narizz and Warren Sedoru, empowering the First Son of the Emperor, empowering thousands of his Children beyond what any Sith could achieve, dominating the Emperor's Hand and all his Imperial Guard, and still having enough power and mental will to enact the Dark Ritual after this.
Originally posted by The EllimistAuthors don't do that kind of calibration and they also don't sit around speculating on how Sidious or Dooku would perform against a myriad of hypothetical opponents (including one's that haven't even been created at the time of publishing) in an unrealistic gladiator cage styled vacuum. In the context of the force, power, especially for Sidious, has numerous applications outside of direct and random combat. Plagues and Sidious's ritual is the chief example of this. Clouding the entire Jedi Order's foresight is another good example.
Actually, authorial intent is one of the best arguments for prioritizing accolades over feats, because it's far simpler to construct a consistent general power hierarchy than to carefully calibrate the magnitude and implications of every application of the Force to the user's intended power relative to other Force users. "Sidious is more powerful than Dooku" is easy to get consistent in stories; "oh we'll have Dooku lift this rock but wait didn't Sidious struggle with lifting that thing, which one is heavier?" requires a lot more calibration that we know authors don't typically do.
No, but general Force power is a very good proxy for combative ability for obvious reasons. We see that Force users' ability to use the Force in one area is correlated with their ability to use it in another; while it's not exactly the same, there's a reason why you don't see Vestara Khai blowing up fleets with Force Storms.Except nobody in SW, save for maybe the Ones, is a galaxy tier combatant (i.e. Skyfather level). Not even close, so Plagues' and Sidious' ritual as well as dark-side shifting to Sidious after Plagues' death doesn't remotely correlate with how well he does in direct and random combat and any effort to correlate them is speculation.
Originally posted by SunRazer
We don't know how long the fight lasted before he lost,
we don't know the nature of how they fought,
whether Revan exploited their numbers by getting them in each other's way,
Regardless, it is stated that the team's "combat effectiveness" was greatly bolstered by Satele Shan.
He was also immensely amped there,
a.) He had just fought a far more ruthless battle in the Temple of Sacrifice, in which he received multiple injuries, including but not limited to an explosion approaching the potency of damaging all life in a one-kilometer radius being unleashed upon him and the Machine Core violently stripping away his Force essence.
b.) Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and possibly the player character (if not the Hero of Tython, then not him, but it is likely Scourge would be present, then) would have also been amped. The only characters who would not have been empowered would be Satele Shan and, again, possibly the protagonist.
c.) Satele Shan would have been amping the team, likely negating the effect of the nexus for the protagonist if necessary and, for the others, bolstering them to an unfair advantage over Revan (relatively speaking). Further, Revan would have been hindered by the battle meditation.
d.) It is indicated Theran Shan called in air support numerous instances throughout the battle, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjNxsuIFK-c.
But yes, let's ignore all that and say not only was Revan amped, but "immensely."
while the others would have been suffering inverse effects save for Marr (but I accounted for him already).
This exercise has proven that Valkorion's time affecting powers are literally just him going into the head of his host and having conversations with their psyche without consuming real time.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He's communicating with his host's psyche without taking time. That's all the apparent freezing of time is. Valkorion doesn't actually affect time or the perception of it in any meaningful way, lol. I would compare it to Karness Muur conversing with Celeste Morne in the Vector comics, particularly in her fight against Vader.Completely irrelevant and useless in any versus forums scenario. This entire "time stop" shtick has been a complete misnomer. It's nothing of the sort.
You're completing nelglecting how he can dominate the Outlander whilst doing it, maintain the ability as the Outlander kills Heskel, instantly channel powers through this ability. Oh and the fact that he's more powerful in a physical form. Everything he did in this state is lesser than what he can achieve at full strength.
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Authors don't do that kind of calibration and they also don't sit around speculating on how Sidious or Dooku would perform against a myriad of hypothetical opponents (including one's that haven't even been created at the time of publishing) in an unrealistic gladiator cage styled vacuum.
My point is that this problem applies more to feats, because it's easier to say that X > Y than to calibrate every indication of X's power to every known indication of Y's power. Remember that you invoked authorial intent; the most you can get back to with that argument is a wash, so it's not useful for you.
In the context of the force, power, especially for Sidious, has numerous applications outside of direct and random combat. Plagues and Sidious's ritual is the chief example of this. Clouding the entire Jedi Order's foresight is another good example.
Except that introducing combative ability tilts things even more in Plagueis and Sidious's favor, given that they are obviously far better than Valkorion close quarters and have more experience in direct combat.
Except nobody in SW, save for maybe the Ones, is a galaxy tier combatant (i.e. Skyfather level). Not even close, so Plagues' and Sidious' ritual as well as dark-side shifting to Sidious after Plagues' death doesn't remotely correlate with how well he does in direct and random combat and any effort to correlate them is speculation.
What the hell does a "galaxy tier combatant" mean? I never said that the correlation has a particular scaling factor; it's irrelevant because we're comparing Plagueis and Valkorion (or whoever else) on a relative scale, not the magnitude of Plagueis's power in an absolute sense.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The same is true for most novel fights as well.
Indeed.
What does this even mean?
The way in which he engaged them. Did he run up and get involved in a complex melee fight or did he just keep staying on the periphery and launching Force powers at them while defending himself with Barrier, etc?
Uh, good for him?Regardless, it is stated that the team's "combat effectiveness" was greatly bolstered by Satele Shan.
My point being that when you fight against opponents of number, you don't just add their skillsets on top of each other. That's not how it works. I assume you agree with me, which returns to the question of how impressive Revan's feat actually is. How do we compare it to anything else or measure it's worth in a one-on-one fight?
False. Revan was (likely) amped by the dark-side nexus present, but that doesn't factor out:a.) He had just fought a far more ruthless battle in the Temple of Sacrifice, in which he received multiple injuries, including but not limited to an explosion approaching the potency of damaging all life in a one-kilometer radius being unleashed upon him and the Machine Core violently stripping away his Force essence.
Is this the one where he fought a lesser strike team and still lost?
b.) Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and possibly the player character (if not the Hero of Tython, then not him, but it is likely Scourge would be present, then) would have also been amped. The only characters who would not have been empowered would be Satele Shan and, again, possibly the protagonist.c.) Satele Shan would have been amping the team, likely negating the effect of the nexus for the protagonist if necessary and, for the others, bolstering them to an unfair advantage over Revan (relatively speaking). Further, Revan would have been hindered by the battle meditation.
d.) It is indicated Theran Shan called in air support numerous instances throughout the battle, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjNxsuIFK-c.
But yes, let's ignore all that and say not only was Revan amped, but "immensely."
This "spin" on events is completely ignorant of what happened and, frankly, disappointing that would you be so dishonest.
I mentioned all of these as a means of counteracting the Battle Meditation except for the Dark siders being doubly amped by the nexus and the BM which I agree with. In fairness, I have no way of knowing where the nexus and the BM actually cancel out (if anything, it's presumable that it didn't). More power to Revan if he was hindered as a whole, but that doesn't actually mean anything until I can use that to actually rank Revan compared to other characters like Yoda and Dooku.
For all the circumstances in the fight (ie. Light Revan hindering him or something?), my real question is just how do we compare this to any other feat in the mythos? Fighting six people at once just isn't the same as fighting one, and I'm trying to see how we measure Revan's feat in a way that we can safely use it in a one-on-one fight. I mean, Revan could be significantly hindered all I care. At the end of the day I'm just interested in seeing how we judge this feat. I know it's impressive; that's not the question here.
I'm not actually trying to degrade Revan, which your ego obviously couldn't handle and brought you into this as a result. As of yet, my question remains unanswered. How does Revan's fight against the main cast compare to, say, Yoda fighting Sidious? Where does Revan's performance put him in the grand scheme of things? I'm confident he's well above any one of the fighters there already.
According to Skillz, there is a sequence where the Outlander continues walking as Valkorion does-what-he-does, and when Valkorion stops doing it, the Outlander retains his place now far ahead of the other characters.
Well that may change things. I'd like to see it.
I found an example of it:
10.00. The Outlander starts well behind Koth and walks in front of him.
Originally posted by The EllimistNah, I don't think so. We can look to our sister Comic Book versus forum to see that comparing feats of various characters is nowhere is near as complicated as you're attempting to make it out to be. And I don't believe we need to calibrate every single known application of X's known force powers. Maybe in a respect thread, but for a simple fight, a general assessment of how they perform in combat and any relevant extrinsic evidence that would enhance their chances in the proposed hypothetical scenario would be sufficient. I don't see anything illogical about this method of analysis, but see ample illogic with trying to take statements made by the authors/publishers/dictionaries and use them outside of what they were intended for.
My point is that this problem applies more to feats, because it's easier to say that X > Y than to calibrate every indication of X's power to every known indication of Y's power.
Except that introducing combative ability tilts things even more in Plagueis and Sidious's favor, given that they are obviously far better than Valkorion close quarters and have more experience in direct combat.If they're obviously far better, then lets hear the argument for why they are far better (and preferably without using vague and nebulous non combat showings). Couldn't care less about chest beating PT/OT/TOR brigade nonsense and am happy to change my assessment of things upon being confronted with new or compelling information. ✅
What the hell does a "galaxy tier combatant" mean? I never said that the correlation has a particular scaling factor; it's irrelevant because we're comparing Plagueis and Valkorion (or whoever else) on a relative scale, not the magnitude of Plagueis's power in an absolute sense.Galaxy tier combatant is meant by whatever is being insinuated when you mention a "galactic scale force alignment." Suffice to say, I don't believe that it is in any way reflective of the level of sheer combative abilities, much less that you can use it to quantify how well they might fare in a hypothetical battle against Valkorion or whoever.