Thor vs Superman (Again)

Originally posted by cdtm
Indeed.

Like the Op said, this is just a way of shutting down the speed blitze and magic weakness arguments. The burdon of proof is on proving eithet can shut the other down, comic book style (So we can look at, say, Thor vs Gladiator or Count Nafaria. Or point to Superman vs non magic based versatility)

It's the way that all Superman versus threads should go. He fights a certain way in comics consistently, which should be more than enough for the auto speed blitz arguments to be done away with. Or, at least you would think so, but people tend to step into their heroes shoes, and while this is fine some of the time, it shouldn't be the core of their argument, or we would simply be arguing from a purely power set perspective, and leaving out the character. Shit if I were Superman, I'd take Krav Maga, and BJJ courses until I was a Grand Master in both, and use it on every opponent that I faced just for shits and giggles.

Speedsters get tagged due to PIS and CIS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speedsters get tagged due to PIS and CIS.

If a character were flying at you doing light speed, and you punched them directly in the face, beat up on them and won the fight, then turned around and did it to multiple speedy characters, it would mean that you could perceive them and react at light speed. Perhaps you have some type of esoteric innate ability to do these things?

I'm not here to try to make real world sense of comics book characters, because if I were, I'd begin with trying to understand how a character as strong as Wonder Woman would be any more susceptible to cutting attacks than she is to blunt force attacks. Then I'd have to question how Spiderman is able to lift 10 plus tons, yet isn't crushed beneath the weight due to his near (comic book) human durability.

The suspension of disbelief has been tossed out of the window too many times to rely on a set PIS or CIS ruling for a speedster being hit. They take it all too often to say that they wouldn't in a forum match against characters that have been seen repeatedly hitting speedsters. Leaning on this 100% of the time, would in turn make it seem as if we were bringing real world physics into a Looney Tunes universe in comparison to our own, in order to make sense of the senseless.

Originally posted by Stoic
If a character were flying at you doing light speed, and you punched them directly in the face, beat up on them and won the fight, then turned around and did it to multiple speedy characters, it would mean that you could perceive them and react at light speed. Perhaps you have some type of esoteric innate ability to do these things?

I'm not here to try to make real world sense of comics book characters, because if I were, I'd begin with trying to understand how a character as strong as Wonder Woman would be any more susceptible to cutting attacks than she is to blunt force attacks. Then I'd have to question how Spiderman is able to lift 10 plus tons, yet isn't crushed beneath the weight due to his near (comic book) human durability.

The suspension of disbelief has been tossed out of the window too many times to rely on a set PIS or CIS ruling for a speedster being hit. They take it all too often to say that they wouldn't in a forum match against characters that have been seen repeatedly hitting speedsters. Leaning on this 100% of the time, would in turn make it seem as if we were bringing real world physics into a Looney Tunes universe in comparison to our own, in order to make sense of the senseless.

👆 that makes Batman FTL.

On top of that, he has herald level durability and stamina and intelligence.

And has done it multiple times in his career. Perhaps it's innate?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆 that makes Batman FTL.

On top of that, he has herald level durability and stamina and intelligence.

And has done it multiple times in his career. Perhaps it's innate?

And that's why one should never put feats above common sense. 😉

Of course, a high herald is much more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. And street levelers routinely do things no human has any business doing.

But when Captain America is beating the crap out of Hulk, I think it's safe to call shenanigans. Even if he did this every single week.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆 that makes Batman FTL.

On top of that, he has herald level durability and stamina and intelligence.

And has done it multiple times in his career. Perhaps it's innate?

he just hit a baseball pitched by Clark. it's not innate. it's his training. He timed it perfectly and hit the ball.

Originally posted by cdtm
And that's why one should never put feats above common sense. 😉

Of course, a high herald is much more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. And street levelers routinely do things no human has any business doing.

But when Captain America is beating the crap out of Hulk, I think it's safe to call shenanigans. Even if he did this every single week.

No it simply means that he can take on threats of this caliber, with the exception of the Hulk not wanting to kill him.

It all boils down to superman fans not wanting superman to lose. No one here hates superman, people just get sick and tired of his fans thinking he's too fast, to strong, to smart to lose a fight, so they create their own version of the character. So when you debate them about superman, you are not debating the comic book superman, you are debating the made up version from his fans mind. And that version can never be beaten because he's all powerful to them.

Originally posted by JBL
It all boils down to superman fans not wanting superman to lose. No one here hates superman, people just get sick and tired of his fans thinking he's too fast, to strong, to smart to lose a fight, so they create their own version of the character. So when you debate them about superman, you are not debating the comic book superman, you are debating the made up version from his fans mind. And that version can never be beaten because he's all powerful to them.

Please don't bait. The lying is bad enough, but the baiting will get you banned.

Staying on topic is something everyone should do.

Originally posted by Stoic
he just hit a baseball pitched by Clark. it's not innate. it's his training. He timed it perfectly and hit the ball.

No it simply means that he can take on threats of this caliber, with the exception of the Hulk not wanting to kill him.

Cao really shouldn't be hitting harder then Gladiator, Thor, or Abomination.

If they can't put him down, Cap sure shouldn't be able to.

Originally posted by cdtm
Cao really shouldn't be hitting harder then Gladiator, Thor, or Abomination.

If they can't put him down, Cap sure shouldn't be able to.

The Hulk can be as weak as class 2 in case you weren't aware of this. His strength level directly affects his speed, durability, HF, perceptions, and any other physical characteristic that he possesses.

Class 2?

Never seen a greenskin Savage version that was below 75. Cap's literally the first street leveler ever to KO him, as far as I've seen.

Originally posted by cdtm
Class 2?

Never seen a greenskin Savage version that was below 75. Cap's literally the first street leveler ever to KO him, as far as I've seen.

The green Hulk has been as low as class 2. If you were to go way back to his very first meeting with the Thing, you will see that he lost his first fight. The Thing was only a class 3 at that time. Ben gets stronger with time as well. You'll notice that when he looked more like a mud man as opposed to his current brick looking form, he was far weaker. Under several writers, the Hulk took up to 5 long minutes to climb to class 100. So yeah, the Hulk can be this weak, it all depended on his emotional state, but now that he's dead and all...

Anyway, I don't want to derail the topic any further. Just wanted to say one more thing. Thanos has a long history of reacting to speedsters. It isn't PIS, or CIS, he can simply react to them. Gamora and other agile characters are different, they fight heavy weights by anticipating the big hit and evading.

Iron Fist reacted to and countered speedsters.

I'll use that in a thread, but I'm not sure I'd honestly give him a majority over someone like Quicksilver, or possibly even Speed Demon..

Originally posted by cdtm
Iron Fist reacted to and countered speedsters.

I'll use that in a thread, but I'm not sure I'd honestly give him a majority over someone like Quicksilver, or possibly even Speed Demon..

Maybe not them but I'd give Batman odds. Based on his feats and character, he has trained to not only anticipate things like this, but if his timing is right he may be able to make it an upset even against a speedster. Mind you, the odds would be against him. This isn't to say that batman would walk all over Iron Fist, or a peer. In my opinion it comes down to character, power set, might, and plot in that order. If not, then 90% of the Surfer's losses in fights were PIS. He should nearly never lose.

Originally posted by Stoic
It's the way that all Superman versus threads should go. He fights a certain way in comics consistently, which should be more than enough for the auto speed blitz arguments to be done away with. Or, at least you would think so, but people tend to step into their heroes shoes, and while this is fine some of the time, it shouldn't be the core of their argument, or we would simply be arguing from a purely power set perspective, and leaving out the character. Shit if I were Superman, I'd take Krav Maga, and BJJ courses until I was a Grand Master in both, and use it on every opponent that I faced just for shits and giggles.

It's far likely that he is going to be using speed rather than those silly arguments Silfer Surfer or Thor fans have pulled out of their asses...

It's like you expect Superman to use his speed, moreso, his entire power set every time he address the problem. It's called PIS and CIS. You wouldn't have a story if he did that.

Timing cannot help you against people that see you in slow motion.

Originally posted by Damborgson
But he admits Surprise wasn't the only factor.

Surprise+magic. Surprise was the key though.

The scene where's he's cut is earlier in the fight. It shows his vulnerability which is the purpose. Were it just an axe, it likely wouldnt have cut him.

He always gets cut by magical weapons. His blunt force durability against magical objects is not that bad.

His performance after where he punches him once doesn't mean he doesn't have a magic vulnerability.

What? Cap punched him repeatedly.

I don't see how that matters? He also switched him over to batman because he was having difficulties. (Lol) these instances are just to back up the magic vulnerability. Superman being tough doesnt change that, it just means he'll be particularly susceptible to them sometimes.

It was all a feint to go to Luthor. When the timing was right, Superman knocked Cap out off panel and stole his clothes.

Both Superman and Batman threw the fight purposely.

A gauntlet? Who? Mind controlled banshee and mind controlled Mongul? The real gauntlet comes after that iirc. And regardless, Superman straight up admits the magix was affecting him.

You're acting like Banshee and Mongul are some lightweights.

Yes, it was absorbing his power which is what nightshade does. Thor isn't going to produce magical shadows which can absorb sunlight.

Do worse in what area, Thor doesn't have a magic vulnerability, if it knocks him out it was just the strength of the spell, not his,acceptability to spells.

Blunt force trauma. It's Thor's weakness.

No, Superman has equal speed to Thor. There's a difference.

That doesn't mean Thor can use it as Superman does. Having power and having experience are two different things.

Superman also wouldn't like a chunk of Uru in his chest and it didn't look like an electrical attack regardless.

Yes it did. Thor wouldn't want his heart removed either.

Originally posted by Stoic
he just hit a baseball pitched by Clark. it's not innate. it's his training. He timed it perfectly and hit the ball.

No it simply means that he can take on threats of this caliber, with the exception of the Hulk not wanting to kill him.

He's also dodged HV...after it was fired. I have the scans. From a bloodlusted Superman trying to kill him.

Also, now imagine the baseball was sentient. And was rushing towards Batman (or Thor, in this case). Replace the bat with a magical hammer. This ball is magical, and can think for itself,and can change direction if it wanted to.

As Thor/Batman times it perfectly and swings his hammer/bat....the ball can see this. It can see the shoulder muscles shift, the weight transfer on the feet, the arc of the hammer/bat, all in slow motion.

And still gets hit.

This implies Batman/Thor were faster than the ball. That the ball saw the swing coming, and was either unable to react in time, or, perversely, was able to react but didn't WANT to. The ball wanted to get hit.

That's what the arguments are boiling down to.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surprise+magic. Surprise was the key though.

He always gets cut by magical weapons. His blunt force durability against magical objects is not that bad.

What? Cap punched him repeatedly.

It was all a feint to go to Luthor. When the timing was right, Superman knocked Cap out off panel and stole his clothes.

Both Superman and Batman threw the fight purposely.

You're acting like Banshee and Mongul are some lightweights.

Yes, it was absorbing his power which is what nightshade does. Thor isn't going to produce magical shadows which can absorb sunlight.

Blunt force trauma. It's Thor's weakness.

That doesn't mean Thor can use it as Superman does. Having power and having experience are two different things.

Yes it did. Thor wouldn't want his heart removed either.

Okay, so you agree magic was a factor. I agree surprise was a factor. 👆

Okay, you're agreeing again, this is good 👆

I meant against Viking in the rematch, that Superman punched him once before heating up his axe.

Nope, you can't prove that. The knockout was almost certainly a feint, but Superman's interior monologue of Captain Marvel's magic bothering him in blunt force hand to hand combat was a feint? Highly unlikely, and not provable.

No, I mean that his fights with them mind controlled didn't damage him enough for Nightshade's magic to be helped along by his exhaustion. Obviously beating them was great still.

....I'm going to assume you're not quite understanding me. Superman's speed in this thread? Same as Thor's. That means at the level of speed that Thor operates at. That means no heart removing, not that he's ever done that (iirc) but still.

Originally posted by leonidas
ah, i see. i think the issue is we're arguing under different understandings of the rules here. i'd assume that equal speed applies across the board--ie their flight speed is also the same meaning they could cover the same distance in the same amount of time. that would mean supes is attacking thor at thor speed. now, that can be pretty fast, but his acceleration is a LOT less than superman's in 99/100 cases. so this would be a relatively slow, easy to react to bullrush...

you're also assuming that supes would easily replicate glads feat of knocking the hammer away, but i'm not so sure it would be that easy. i mean how many battles against uber opponents had he fought and NOT had the hammer knocked away? i'm not sure the assumption that superman would do so is a given. then once he's reached thor, even if he does succeed, (get to him and knock away the hammer) it still isn't over. thor can effortlessly recall the hammer (and in this scenario it is by far the fastest thing on the field) and have it hit supes in the back (ala worthy thing) or he could summon lightning (which i do think would do damage to superman...some of those lightning feats are pretty impressive) to break up the ensuing wrestling match.

again, we're seeing the effectiveness of this bullrush differently. i def feel like thor would have time to decide whether to throw, spin or swat with the hammer. he's blocked laser fire easily enough and here superman would be bullrushing at far below light speed.

are these tactics you suggest possible? sure. do i see them being as effective as you do? no, you're right i don't. i mentioned knocking the hammer away already. he could, but as i said, it's not a given in my mind. could he grab thor's hand and beat him with the hammer? maybe, but again, while he's bullrushing? i just don't see it. in this bull rush scenario, i can see supes charging with hv, and thor spinning the hammer to block. i doubt he'd go for bfr that early, but he could and the portal is strong enough to suck in guys like nefaria, who is also stronger than thor and has caught a hammer blow. i'd guess superman would stop his charge when the hammer spun then it would come down to a more typical battle where the hammer's versatility would be the difference. /shrug

yep. and i think we have a different understanding of the rules too. 👆

I'm going to need Damborg to clarify, but it wouldn't make sense for them to have the same acceleration, considering their modes of propulsion are vastly different - one being pure-flying thought based, and the other being hammer swinging based. Damborg, does your OP refer to flight, too, or is that unaffected? Furthermore, you just said Mjolnir, which Thor uses to fly, is the fastest thing on the field, when Superman's flight speed and Thor's are according to your interpretation equalized. That sounds like an inconsistency.

If what Damborg wants is for their top speed to be the same, well, then it wouldn't make any difference. Both of their flying speed is faster than light, and in the short distance they start from each other, neither of them would be able to go their top speed without not knowing when to stop. So for all intents and purposes, when they start, both of them can cover the battleground at low-machs, at most. It's only when my position of separating Thor from the hammer [Gladiator] and dragging him by his neck to the sun [Sentry] that he can use the full FTL flight speed. Unless Thor starts flying away and not towards Superman [lol], then him flying towards Superman would only serve Clark since he is the one who wants to close the distance.

I don't see why we should dismiss Gladiator, when he's one of the few that has straight up gone for separating Thor from the hammer and has successfully done so and he's a pale Superman imitation as well. And in this match, we have Superman, who breaks the wrist of Thor-level opponents by squeezing:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/4019493-5135609417-wonde.jpg

I think you're also overestimating how hard it is to make Thor drop the hammer, even when you're not specifically aiming for his grip.

Count Nefaria [another Superman clone] has done it inadvertently:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsCountNefaria06.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515673564367

Beta Ray Bill has done it:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsBetaRayBill01337.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515673183406

And again:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsBetaRayBill07.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515673255837

Hulk:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHulk07.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515685503596

Rulk made him his *****:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsRulk06.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515686204208

Loki:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsLoki19Thor207.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515686090783

etc.
I could go on, these are just what I could get my hands on at work.

Superman wouldn't give him time to pick it back up/call it back at him. He'd straight out grab him and heat vision his eyes dead towards the sun. Those moments he has no Mjolnir, he's defenseless. And Superman is sporting surgical heat vision capable of one-shotting trans-tier opponents and more.

Most of these examples are the opponents not even focusing on making him dropping the hammer. To actually want to do that, and hitting specifically for that purpose? Well, poor man's Superman, Gladiator, already showed it.

Superman would make Thor drop the hammer. The only question is what Thor can do to keep Superman at a distance, when he has only a few moments before Superman gets close and the match is done.

I agree that Thor would have time to throw, spin, or swat the hammer. Problem is that if he spins and misses [I will gladly show tens of examples of it missing its target], he's dead before it gets back to him, since Superman will grab and kill him. If he spins it to block heat vision [projectiles]? It practically invites Superman to get up close, grab him and game over. If he tries to hit Superman with it? Palming it. Or freezing him still. Or heat visioning his eyes/brain. Superman can grab his hands [i.e. pulling a Hulk] and either start hitting him with it, or straight up freezing his insides, burning him, headbutting him into unconsciousness, flying him to the sun [see Rulk] etc. Even IF Thor's literal only action is creating a portal, and Clark is kind enough not to burn his eyes as he does it, it won't be sucking Superman in, not when he can fly out of black holes.

I feel we're ignoring the fact that Thor here is majorly dependent on Mjolnir for both offense and defense, and he gets trashed the moment Superman gets an opening, which is 1 second within the fight unless Thor does...something, that is yet undefined. If he blocks HV, he can't throw it. If he throws it, and misses, Superman bullrushes him dead. Superman could just flood the field with super-breath, and Thor wouldn't even know where he's coming from. If he stands his ground, Superman has a shitload of options of beating him up close.

To cut this short:
How do you imagine the fight "choreography" and why? Way I see it, almost any course of action, certainly a large majority of them, end up with Thor dead when Superman gets close [i.e. within the first second]