Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's basically stated to be more powerful than at least the Luke that others have seen, can bend back entire turbolaser barrages and has the potential of trillions of beings to draw from. It's as if Vitiate absorbed a thousand Ziosts, but put all the power into amping himself rather than life extension.
Not my point. facepalm
Originally posted by ILS
Even Valk's time stop, however the hell that actually works, can be broken out of as seen by Vaylin, so it's clearly not a trump card. Nor does Mace's Vaapad do anything to neutralise Plagueis' Force power advantage.
Valkorion was immensely weakened and Vaylin was well-experienced at having the technique used against her. Neither is the case vs Plagueis. The buffer it takes for him to break out - if he even can - will be his death.
There's no basis to the idea Darth Plagueis can no-show, say, Valkorion's Force lightning in a combat setting. He might be able to resist it temporarily (after being beaten in battle) but he will succumb.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no basis to the idea Darth Plagueis can no-show, say, Valkorion's Force lightning in a combat setting. He might be able to resist it temporarily but he will succumb.
He no-shows Palpatine, already the most powerful sith in history drawing more darkly on the dark side than he ever had, at point blank range while in a drunken stupor and only dies from suffocation.
Plagueis laughs at any of Valkorion's attacks tbh.
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.
We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd.
Plagueis died from suffocation, he wasn't otherwise suffering physical harm from Sidious, who was explicitly going all-out.
Anyway, the argument isn't that Plagueis will literally stand there and let Valkorion attack him from the lultz, but he does have a haxx that makes Valkorion's victory even more implausible.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Still proves it isn't a trump card, and knowledge of the technique seems less relevant than simply having the power to resist it. You're committing a no-limits fallacy by suggesting it'll automatically work on Plagueis.
Why not?Valkorion was immensely weakened and Vaylin was well-experienced at having the technique used against her. Neither is the case vs Plagueis. The buffer it takes for him to break out - if he even can - will be his death.
There's no basis to the idea Darth Plagueis can no-show, say, Valkorion's Force lightning in a combat setting. He might be able to resist it temporarily (after being beaten in battle) but he will succumb.
I would argue there is plenty of basis he can heal against Valk's lightning, given the Sidious example, but even providing he can't out-heal it permanently, he doesn't need to because, he isn't drunk, ambushed and defenceless here. He can use barriers, tutaminis, his lightsaber for defence, relocate, retreat, heal and come back to the fight etc. He can be back in peak shape even if Valk breaks his defences. The midichlorians are creating new tissue to replace damaged tissue in real time.
Valk's only saving grace is that he's a spirit which makes him harder to kill, but given that even Kun could destroy spirits, I doubt Plagueis will be incapable. Nor do I think Valk has a way to put him down realistically before he expends himself.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.
And that's the key. Even while drunk, suffocating and presumably not at full power, he was as vulnerable as a non-Force user yet Sheev - even if we are generous - was only slowly managing to kill him, while going all-out.
Valkorion can do nothing.
We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd.
Plagueis wouldn't even draw his lightsaber here. It's a useless trinket and he doesn't share his apprentice's egotistical need to showboat, not to mention his general distaste for dueling.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote he never suffered any physical harm?
It's more that he isn't described as suffering any harm other than suffocation. Where else have you seen people dying from force lightning due to suffocation again? Usually one dies first from, you know, the lightning.
It's an irrelevant argument since there's no basis he can do it in combat. Unless you want to argue that, on his knees, Plagueis delays his death temporarily as Valkorian finishes him off, sure.
I'd say being drunk and sleeping balances out the concentration part, especially as he is able to launch a telekinetic attack while doing it.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote he never suffered any physical harm?It's an irrelevant argument since there's no basis he can do it in combat. Unless you want to argue that, on his knees, Plagueis delays his death temporarily as Valkorian finishes him off, sure.
Urm, so you don't think successfully defending against an all-out Sidious with MM counts as a combat situation? 😬
Also, even discounting MM entirely, Plagueis' standard Force Barriers are durable enough to tank hits from lightsaber blades and army-busting, planetary firestorms per scaling from Bane and Zannah. What does Valkorion have to exceed the potency of a lightsaber to suggest he'd be able to even scratch Plagueis?
Also, Plagueis' other feats outside midi-chlorian manipulation include TP'ing sextillions of organisms, causing continental earthquakes and a global ice age. Given that Ziost was clearly a ritual, Valkorion has nothing in the planetary much less galactic range to establish him as a threat to Plagueis. He would get stomped even without midi-chlorian manipulation.
Originally posted by samappo
Mace could not compete with Sidious with the force. When Sidious actually uses lightning we are told it bends back Mace's blade and that it was too much for even Vaapad, so. You're wrong.
And not only that, but Sidious blasts Mace using his full power and doesn't turn Mace into ash. 😉